Moonlighting

[emahler]

now in NJ, under that definition, it's a 4th degree felony, punishable with jailtime.

 

[growler]

I don't need a business license here in MA, I can do as much volume of work as I want with my J-mans license, no more than one apprentice and some liability insurance

Ok Bob, MA has different laws. Does the state require you to keep records and file taxes? How do you know when you are in business? Do get paid in cash? Do you have to operate as a business in any way?

 

[iwire]

now in NJ, under that definition, it's a 4th degree felony, punishable with jailtime.

Has anyone been prosecuted?

If yes has it been more than a stern 'Don't do that again'?

Most of the guys I know that do side jobs are licensed, insured, pull permits and get inspections.

The fact that they have lower overhead than the ECs that have been called 'legit' in this thread is just how it is.

 

[emahler]

Has anyone been prosecuted?

If yes has it been more than a stern 'Don't do that again'?

Most of the guys I know that do side jobs are licensed, insured, pull permits and get inspections.

The fact that they have lower overhead than the ECs that have been called 'legit' in this thread is just how it is.

don't know and I doubt it. I wish they would start to prosecute them.

most guys i know who 'moonlight' aren't licensed, insured, or for that matter really qualified.

One thing this thread definitely showed is the difference in thought between employers and employees. I didn't expect anything different, though. But I like the conversation that has occurred.

 

[growler]

now in NJ, under that definition, it's a 4th degree felony, punishable with jailtime.

Here it's a slap on the wrist at best but it's still againt state law.

emahler, I have enjoyed your argument so far. I don't think the oposition can really justify their position. Just because there is a crack dealer on every corner doesn't make it legal. Even the worlds oldest profession is illegal in most states ( I'm sure they just want to make a living ).

 

[brian john]

If you think about it a legit contractor that operates out of his garage (if permitted by zoning) has lower ovehead then his competors that have to rent or own business space. The contractor that does not have baseball or football tickets has a lower overhead. Large contractors may have more overhead than a small shop. Lots of ways to have a high overhead or to control that overhead.

 

[iwire]

Ok Bob, MA has different laws. Does the state require you to keep records and file taxes?

Well you have to report your income, I am not sure about the records.

When I did side jobs for businesses they sent in a 1099.

How do you know when you are in business?

What is the definition of 'in business'?

Do get paid in cash?

I have or by check

Do you have to operate as a business in any way?

I have to have insurance.

If I have an apprentice I have to keep records about their time for seven years.

This will not make the business owners happy but I will say it anyway.

None of the issues raised in this thread are new, as long as there has been companies providing a service there have been people willing to undercut those prices.

If you are not willing to accept that should you be running a business?

All I am saying is you made a choice to move from employee to employer with that comes a lot of good......and even more bad.

I made a decision a long time ago that I am happy letting someone else chase the work and follow up chasing the money after the job is done.

 

[emahler]

Bob,

I don't disagree, but as growler said, there will always be people on the corner selling drugs and their bodies. it's illegal everywhere, but a couple of counties in Nevada)

theft is illegal in all states, but people still do it.

as a law abiding citizen, you made the decision to play by the rules, should you just accept that others won't and move on?

in areas where it's legal, then it's simply an issue for those involved to decide.

in areas where it's illegal, then it should be a concerted effort to limit it as much as possible.

There will always be criminals and outlaws, doesn't mean we just stand back and let them run rampant.

 

[stickboy1375]

Here it's a slap on the wrist at best but it's still against state law.

emahler, I have enjoyed your argument so far. I don't think the opposition can really justify their position. Just because there is a crack dealer on every corner doesn't make it legal. Even the worlds oldest profession is illegal in most states ( I'm sure they just want to make a living ).

There is no argument, what an EC does is legal, what I do is Illegal... There are far worse crimes in America.... You don't need to worry what I do afterhours.... I can't believe we are actually comparing electrical work to prostitution...somebody shoot me now...

 

[emahler]

there are far worse crimes than selling marijuana....there are always worse things that can happen.

we, fortunately or unfortunately, are a nation builts on laws. While I don't agree with many, I do agree with fair competition.

So, my only plausible way out, since we are never going to end moonlighting, is to do away with licenses and regulations.

Open the field up to fair competititon from all sides. Unemcumber contractors who feel the need to follow the law, and let us all work without the overhead burden that the government applies.

I'm actually being half serious.

 

[iwire]

There will always be criminals and outlaws, doesn't mean we just stand back and let them run rampant.

Yes, and I would prefer my Tax dollars are spent on prosecuting real criminals.

I do not consider what stickboy does or what I may have done to be a 'real' crime. I think of it as on par with exceeding the speed limit not on par with selling addictive drugs on some corner.

It is far from a perfect world, I say chose you battles and ignore the rest.

As I said in my first post...I believe that in the long term side jobbers of all types bring down the wages my employer can pay me.

I also believe they are a fact of life.

I would also like it if people always hired an electrician instead of DIY but that directly conflicts with my idea of an America where a citizen can do what they want in their own home.

No easy answers but the problem was there before you opened your doors for business so you must have made a conscience decision to deal with it.

 

[stickboy1375]

I honestly hope there are no hard feelings and everyone respects where the other is coming from... right or wrong. (I know i'm in the wrong)

 

[emahler]

stick,

honestly, no hard feelings from me.

bob, i agree with your thoughts on tax dollars and real crimes. So lets do away with licensing and make the field level. It will save everyone money.

 

[growler]

None of the issues raised in this thread are new, as long as there has been companies providing a service there have been people willing to undercut those prices.

If you are not willing to accept that should you be running a business?

I remember when a thread was closed because it was suggested that a man give up his job for a lack of ethics.

Are you suggesting that I give up my job because I agrue on the side of ethics and the law.

 

[growler]

Yes, and I would prefer my Tax dollars are spent on prosecuting real criminals.

I do not consider what stickboy does or what I may have done to be a 'real' crime.

I don't think he should be taken to the public square and shot. What happens when you get enough points on your drivers license for speeding . You suddenly become a pedestrian.

 

[stickboy1375]

I have to say, even if people didn't moonlight, there is always another EC willing to work cheaper than someone else, so I'm a really a threat to you? Or does everyone think since I don't play by the rules its not fair... Boy, what great law abiding citizens we have on the forum.... I guarentee if we open up some closets nobody here is better than me...

 

[iwire]

bob, i agree with your thoughts on tax dollars and real crimes. So lets do away with licensing and make the field level. It will save everyone money.

No I would not want to see the laws changed for the express purpose of making it easier for you and other business owners to make ends meet.

Don't get me wrong, I do not think running a business is criminal and I am sorry if I come across like that.

What I think is that if someone wants the benefits of running / owning a company they have to accept that it is not easy, not today not next week, not a year from now.

I imagine it to be hard, frustrating and stressful.

One minute you have IRS issues, another a key employee is out sick, a customer loses their financing, a side jobber undercuts you and takes the job.

It is all part of owning a business is it not?

That is why as owners you are also in a position to make the big bucks if all the planets align and things go well.

I was once approached on a job by someone trying to bad mouth the company I work for.

They said in a tone that was evil.

"Ya know your boss is a millionaire" (he is)

I said

"Good for him, he started just like the rest of us"

He comes back with

"He made that with your labor"

I say

"So what?" and left it at that.

What it comes down to is he took the chances I have not, he took the risks, he made the jump and he did it in spite of the side jobbers out here.

At this point he can sit back in his 20,000 sq ft home and count his cash.

 

[emahler]

bob,

my point is this...if I'm playing by the rules, it will upset me when someone thumbs there nose at them.

do away with the rules, then I don't have to be a criminal to compete.

 

[iwire]

Are you suggesting that I give up my job because I agree on the side of ethics and the law.

No, I was asking a question, I did not even come close to telling you what I think you should personally do.

 

[iwire]

bob,

my point is this...if I'm playing by the rules, it will upset me when someone thumbs there nose at them.

Yes I agree.

Life is full of upsets.

do away with the rules, then I don't have to be a criminal to compete.

I don't agree that is an acceptable answer.

That leaves the consumer out in the cold that is willing to pay for a qualified contractor and wants permits and inspections.