My Current Gripe

[jmellc]

You do understand this thread is about GFCIs right? :blink::roll:

This is called a parallel, when a similar situation exists in more than 1 realm. Realms are big rooms in the whole "scheme of things". Read back to my 1st post also, read it carefully; GFCI's are 1 part of it, not the whole thread.

 

[cowboyjwc]

Last time cord/plug was discussed in a local code class, our chief inspector said his dept will not approve hard wiring if the equipment is sold with cord/plug. That was a few years ago, haven't heard the issue lately.

No one here wants to do sloppy & unsafe wiring. Most of us have seen the trash that some jacklegs install. I see it every day & see new records being set all the time. My gripe is the system forcing technology that is hard to pay for while also allowing sloppy methods like backstabbing devices. Most burned switches or receptacles I have replaced have been a direct result of backstabbing. AFCI's may reduce number of burned devices, maybe not. Time will tell.

Tell my customers that properly functioning appliances will not trip a GFCI receptacle or that a power flicker will not trip one. Again, some of the newer ones seem better on this but not all.

I truly think we are at the point where some of the "rule makers" lie awake at night thinking of new rules, whether needed or not. After all, without new rules, a rule maker is out of a job.[/QUOTE]

Actually the guys who write the code, other than those who work for NFPA, all donate their time.

 

[Sierrasparky]

"rule makers" lie awake at night thinking of new rules, whether needed or not. After all, without new rules, a rule maker is out of a job.[/QUOTE]

Actually the guys who write the code, other than those who work for NFPA, all donate their time.[/QUOTE]


So what you are saying is that a voulunteer has no agenda and is inherintly un-biased. Are you saying these folks are not subjected to any lobbying. Really?

 

[renosteinke]

Volunteers ... donating time .... pure motives ....

I've said this before, but it's worth repeating: Look up and read the US Supreme Court case "Hydrolevel vs. ASME." The opinions in that case do a marvelous job of presenting the arguments, and reveal the abuse of the code-writing process for commercial advantage. (Hydrolevel are the 'good guys' in this tale). The ASME, by contrast, played the 'volunteer, consensus, procedures followed' card to the hilt, asserting they had NO responsibility for what their representatives said/ did in their name.

A few years later, the NFPA got involved with similar shenanigans, as the steel conduit makers tried to exclude PVC from the code. There's also a Supreme Court case on that one- though that case is more about traditional stuffing of the ballot box.

I'd rather deal with an honest scoundrel than an insincere friend.

 

[iwire]

So what you are saying is that a voulunteer has no agenda and is inherintly un-biased. Are you saying these folks are not subjected to any lobbying. Really?

I don't think that is what he is saying at all and if you look in the front of the code book you can see the names of the CMP members and their affiliation.

But again, this thread is way over the top about a simple GFCI, the code makers job is electrical safety, not refrigeration, not heating.

 

[renosteinke]

Actually, I think the thread was supposed to be about how cumulative code changed make upgrades / improvements too expensive for the poorest among us- leaving them in worse shape than necessary. Sort of like making someone take the bus if they can't afford a BMW.

I think the GFCI discussion is a tangent.

 

[Sierrasparky]

Iwire, Dude I respect you and all that you do around here. Unfortunately I differ with you on your opinion as to this thread and new codes. I will not change my mind about the driving force behind these changes. Look for instance we had a code change that demanded the use of AFCI and a ACFI receptacle. To this date I have never seen a AFCI receptacle. How is it that you can codify a device that has not yet been perfected and my not have even been invented yet. That was almost 10 years ago!

The code panel is not unbiased no matter what the affiliations that are printed. Hopefully there are are more on the panel without a bias or motive than those with.

 

[Sierrasparky]

You do understand this thread is about GFCIs right? :blink::roll:

I believe the OP is about AFCI's and the cost !:?

 

[Fulthrotl]

I believe the OP is about AFCI's and the cost !:?

well, the code is, as mentioned, written by volunteer labor. and buy and large, it's a good consensus.

however, if we want to go look at the aluminum branch circuit wire fiasco of the 1970's.. that product
was approved by the code panels of the time.

and one of the key people in that implementation, from what i've been told in that was a housing contractor
from southern california, who used aluminum wire in everything he wired. during the 1970's, his shop had a railroad
siding, and he bought romex... aluminum romex, buy the railcar load, in multiple cars. he put it in everywhere.
there were 300 electricians working for him during the housing boom of the 1970's here, lassoing houses.

he sued any city that wouldn't let him use it.

http://law.justia.com/cases/california/calapp3d/33/573.html

so, there are politics afoot.

there always are.

 

[iwire]

Look for instance we had a code change that demanded the use of AFCI and a ACFI receptacle. To this date I have never seen a AFCI receptacle. How is it that you can codify a device that has not yet been perfected and my not have even been invented yet. That was almost 10 years ago!

There is no NEC requirement for the use of AFCI receptacles, that would be a design decision.

The code panel is not unbiased no matter what the affiliations that are printed. Hopefully there are are more on the panel without a bias or motive than those with.

Who said that they are not biased, everyone is biased.

 

[iwire]

I believe the OP is about AFCI's and the cost !:?

You are right, it did start there, I am sorry I did not notice that.

But the OP also went on about GFCIs as well

http://forums.mikeholt.com/showthread.php?t=139636&page=2&p=1336348#post1336348

GFCI's? I shouldn't start on this, but it is a smaller rant. .

I see the need for them in bath, kit counters & outdoors. Garages to a point. I hate that the code did away with garage exceptions for appliances. A lot of GFCI receptacles still tend to trip from appliances & many will trip with a momentary power flicker.

 

[Sierrasparky]

There is no NEC requirement for the use of AFCI receptacles, that would be a design decision.

So what if were a design decision. When the 2003 code I think was written it spoke of use of AFCI breaker or a Receptacle to protect only bedroom receptacles. That is what I speak of. Those AFCI receptacles have yet to be available to a consumer/contractor yet they are listed in a code to provide complinace and yet to be manufactured.

I wire you want AFCI or GFCI for whole house......... WOW How did we ever survive without them.


The views on this post are over 3000 now.

 

[growler]

if the peoples appliances are in good working order the GCI will not trip.

That's pretty much what I thought but I guess I was wrong. On Friday I saw a refrigerator with a warning label on the cord that said not to use with an ungrounded outlet ( makes sense ) but the label also said not to be used with "GFCI protected outlet". I called the manufacturer and they said the appliance would trip with a GFCI protected outlet ( surprise, surprise ).

I guess it's legal to sell an appliance that is noted listed to work with GFCI protection but I do think they should warn the customer because most people will not read the label on the cord before purchase. This is the first one I have noticed as I don't normally read those labels either. It also stated the same thing in the installation instuctions.

If there is anyone looking to purchase a cheap refrigerator I would suggest looking for said warning label.

 

[joebell]

There is no NEC requirement for the use of AFCI receptacles, that would be a design decision.

Actually 406.4(D)(4) is a requirement for AFCI receptacles as replacements begining in 2014.

 

[jim dungar]

I guess it's legal to sell an appliance that is noted listed to work with GFCI protection....

Complying, or compatibility, with the NEC is not a mandatory requirement for many, if not most, listing standards.

 

[Sierrasparky]

Actually 406.4(D)(4) is a requirement for AFCI receptacles as replacements begining in 2014.

Wow 2014 a mandate. yet the product is still not on the market almost a decade after the first mention in the code.

I wonder how big they will be, Hopefully not larger than a GFCI!

Huston we have a problem.

 

[joebell]

Wow 2014 a mandate. yet the product is still not on the market almost a decade after the first mention in the code.

I wonder how big they will be, Hopefully not larger than a GFCI!

Huston we have a problem.

They actaully appear to be roughly the same size as GFCI receptacles. I understand where you are

coming from with regards to mandating this technology in the code before it is commercially

available. On the other hand this new technology has to enter the market somehow and what

better way than creating a code rule. Lets keep in mind the NEC is an ever changing document

and we all can participate in the process.

 

[iwire]

Actually 406.4(D)(4) is a requirement for AFCI receptacles as replacements begining in 2014.

Actually this is 2011 or did I miss the rest of 11 and all of 12, and 13?

 

[iwire]

So what if were a design decision.

So a lot.

It is not a requiment as you had said it was.

When the 2003 code I think was written it spoke of use of AFCI breaker or a Receptacle to protect only bedroom receptacles. That is what I speak of. Those AFCI receptacles have yet to be available to a consumer/contractor yet they are listed in a code to provide complinace and yet to be manufactured.

And no one is requiring you use them, the NEC gives you that option if the devices were on the market.

So actually you are complaining the NEC gave you options.

Iwire you want AFCI or GFCI for whole house......... WOW How did we ever survive without them.

This is foolish crap, the fact we did without them has nothing to do with if they would help.

The electrical trade went a long time with out circuit breakers or enclosed wiring, I guess those are also stupid requirements.

The views on this post are over 3000 now.

And that means ............... nothing.

 

[joebell]

Actually this is 2011 or did I miss the rest of 11 and all of 12, and 13?

Bob,

The last sentence in 406.4(D)(4) informs us that this requirement does not take effect until 2014 very similar to the inception of AFCI requirements back in 1999.