Tested all of the receptacles, and all tested correctly.
The house around Milford PA.
Negative Pf residential Home
- Thread starter Rock86
- Start date
The house around Milford PA.
UPDATE:
Utility company came out. They almost called it quits, until they pulled meters from the neighbors and discovered that neutral current increased at my coworkers house. They are going to isolate his house and see if anything changes. There was a thought that his house a better ground established than the one at the pole, or (as I had pointed out to my coworker) they think that there is an issue using a common neutral being fed from a source other than the transformer feeding the house.
Until next time.
Utility company came out. They almost called it quits, until they pulled meters from the neighbors and discovered that neutral current increased at my coworkers house. They are going to isolate his house and see if anything changes. There was a thought that his house a better ground established than the one at the pole, or (as I had pointed out to my coworker) they think that there is an issue using a common neutral being fed from a source other than the transformer feeding the house.
Until next time.
ptonsparky
Tom
- Occupation
- EC - retired
Getting closer but the 'better ground' has me scratching my head as well as '...a source other than...'.
better ground - they said #1 they have issues with people stealing the utility ground wires, #2 the house may be providing a better ground through the 400ft well.
a source other than - I didn't like this when I saw it, but I had to assume the utility company had some other understanding of their system. Who am I but a little electrician turned electrical engineer.
- Location
- Wisconsin
- Occupation
- PE (Retired) - Power Systems
Again industry slang, though this time the POCO's.
Utilities use the term ground and neutral slightly different than an electrician might. They almost never use grounded and grounding.
Yes it is possible that the customer's ground electrode system, like their well casing, is a better ground than the POCO normal multi-grounded neutral for various reasons.
UPDATE:
POCO said by their standards, the home should be capable of handling 10A incoming on the neutral. The owner should check every neutral and ground connection. The only issue they noticed on their end was something called amperage mirroring (i'm not familiar with that term). He said the neutral should show more currant than what you are drawing. Is Kirchoff's Law wrong?
He also advised the homeowner to have check all of the neutral if they are connected with a hot leg. An electrician said the same thing once, and I have told the guy multiple times, if the neutral is connected to the hot he would either have a fault or a fire... am i wrong?
POCO said by their standards, the home should be capable of handling 10A incoming on the neutral. The owner should check every neutral and ground connection. The only issue they noticed on their end was something called amperage mirroring (i'm not familiar with that term). He said the neutral should show more currant than what you are drawing. Is Kirchoff's Law wrong?
He also advised the homeowner to have check all of the neutral if they are connected with a hot leg. An electrician said the same thing once, and I have told the guy multiple times, if the neutral is connected to the hot he would either have a fault or a fire... am i wrong?
Something is not adding up, is this a brand new house? (not newly renovated)
Can we get some photos of the service? Perhaps single line diagram showing wire sizes and the distances.
I be interested to see what FredB finds you should send him a PM and get him to drive down there.
Can we get some photos of the service? Perhaps single line diagram showing wire sizes and the distances.
I be interested to see what FredB finds you should send him a PM and get him to drive down there.
Brandy new. I'll see what I can do about pictures for you.
- Location
- Wisconsin
- Occupation
- PE (Retired) - Power Systems
It is not unusual for utility lineman to not understand house wiring, just like electricians don't know power grids.
The additional service neutral current may actually be coming from a neighbor via a common ground connection.
You are correct a Line-Neutral connection is called a fault.
Joethemechanic
Senior Member
- Location
- Hazleton Pa
- Occupation
- Electro-Mechanical Technician. Industrial machinery
Wait,,, So you are saying that with the main breaker open, you have current on the service neutral? And that 10 amps is acceptable? And this is because the well casing is a very low impedance ground?
What happens when you amp clamp the EGC going to the well casing?
What happens when you amp clamp the EGC going to the well casing?
Main breaker open, current on the neutral, not because of low impedance on the ground... the last bit the POCO theorized.
Clamping on the EGC shows some current as it is bonded with the house neutral.
**Update**
Utility company came out, new transformer, installed ground rod at pole, no change of electrical situation at the house. Utility company no longer responds to home owner.
Owner bought a cheaper monitoring system to see many of the breakers in real time. The refrigerator drops out randomly for long enough to ruin the food within, but it will come back on. the refrigerator was new, replaced, and parts have been replaced with no fix.
Subpanel circuit breaker was turned off, some how the refrigerator circuit was still drawing a small amount of current while all of the others were off. Suggestions have been made about neutrals tied together somewhere, but no neutrals in the subpanel are tied together.
Owner is going to install our logger system to monitor everything for a week or so.
Utility company came out, new transformer, installed ground rod at pole, no change of electrical situation at the house. Utility company no longer responds to home owner.
Owner bought a cheaper monitoring system to see many of the breakers in real time. The refrigerator drops out randomly for long enough to ruin the food within, but it will come back on. the refrigerator was new, replaced, and parts have been replaced with no fix.
Subpanel circuit breaker was turned off, some how the refrigerator circuit was still drawing a small amount of current while all of the others were off. Suggestions have been made about neutrals tied together somewhere, but no neutrals in the subpanel are tied together.
Owner is going to install our logger system to monitor everything for a week or so.
- Location
- Wisconsin
- Occupation
- PE (Retired) - Power Systems
In my refrigerator, the food stays fresh for hours without power, assuming door stays closed.
Are you saying the breaker, feeding their fridge, does not pass current for multiple hours and then decides to start working correctly?
Where are you making measurements, that allow you to know the fridge is drawing current even though its feeder breaker is off? Have you unplugged the fridge and then made the same measurements?
@Rock86 Crazy this is still going on, I don't think there is much else we can help with from here, it seems like were just passing on DIY advice unless you yourself are actually turning tools and running tests on this house?
He is a respected and practicing master electrician on here.
I say get @Fred B to check the place out, seems like he is not far from there?
He is a respected and practicing master electrician on here.
I would have thought the same thing. I even told him that as long as the doors are closed, the food should stay fresh, but he says that even with the doors closed the temperature gets warm enough within a short time span.
This guy is a little wild. He has ammeters clamped on all over the place. around the mains, around the branch breakers, around the ground rod... if current can flow on it, hes clamped a meter around it. hahaha.
I get my hands in it when I can. I think the guy is up to 7 or 8 different electricians at his house poking around. I had phoned a good retired electrician recently to come help as well. Even he was stumped.
I'll shoot a private message to Fred... thanks for the tip. The data just doesn't make sense. I haven't seen a situation like this before.
Fred B
Senior Member
- Location
- Upstate, NY
- Occupation
- Electrician
If using clamp on CT for logging and they are connected backwards it will give a negative. They usually are current direction sensitive. Big issue for net metering CT with solar.
ptonsparky
Tom
- Occupation
- EC - retired
Operator error would be too easy, but admittedly it has been me on more than one occasion.