Number of outlets

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don_resqcapt19 said:
Actually since the percentage of dwelling unit fires that are said to be of electrical origin is less than 15% of the total number of electrical fires, we would be much better off from a life safety perspective to put the money that is required for AFCIs towards the cost of a fire sprinkler system.

Our local code permits you to delete the AFCIs if you install a code compliant sprinkler system.
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Hmpf. Not much of an incentive when you compare the cost of a panel full of AFCI's to the cost of a whole house sprinkler system. Not that I think sprinklers are a bad idea, but someone needs to find a better carrot.
 
gadfly56 said:
Hmpf. Not much of an incentive when you compare the cost of a panel full of AFCI's to the cost of a whole house sprinkler system. Not that I think sprinklers are a bad idea, but someone needs to find a better carrot.
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Most will agree the sprinkler system is a fire protection method, even though fire protection is the idea behind AFCI, they have not convinced everyone they are that effective.
 
I will also add that a dwelling unit sprinkler system is much less expensive than a commercial system. (Still more than AFCIs but at least sprinklers actually do something)

No threading or hard pipe to run.

Screen-Shot-2015-08-11-at-4.45.21-PM.png
 
I would gladly and willingly pay for a residential sprinkler system in lieu of AFCI's.

On that note, doesn't California require sprinklers in all new dwelling units now?
 
kwired said:
...and those that brought AFCI requirements into the NEC:D

Now I probbly derailed the thread:angel:

:thumbsup:
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Talking of Morons your beginning to sound like one. I speak from experience with over 35 years working in the trade. I 'm more then qualified to speak here for the industry to mske a change on out dated method for wiring the number of outlets on a branch circuit. Why do you think almost every other nation in the world has adopted such a standard for the numer of outlets. They are way ahead of us!!!There combined experience and education far out ways you lack of understanding.
 
sparks1 said:
Talking of Morons your beginning to sound like one. I speak from experience with over 35 years working in the trade. I 'm more then qualified to speak here for the industry to mske a change on out dated method for wiring the number of outlets on a branch circuit. Why do you think almost every other nation in the world has adopted such a standard for the numer of outlets. They are way ahead of us!!!There combined experience and education far out ways you lack of understanding.
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So Mr Expert, can you please explain to me how a properly wired circuit starts a fire due to 'too many outlets'?

I really don't believe you can so your idea or NEC proposal will go nowhere.
 
sparks1 said:
Talking of Morons your beginning to sound like one. I speak from experience with over 35 years working in the trade. I 'm more then qualified to speak here for the industry to mske a change on out dated method for wiring the number of outlets on a branch circuit. Why do you think almost every other nation in the world has adopted such a standard for the numer of outlets. They are way ahead of us!!!There combined experience and education far out ways you lack of understanding.
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Number of years in the trade doesn't impress me much, I've met plenty of people with decades in the trade who lacked a basic understanding of the most simple concepts.

As for what the rest of the world does, that doesn't impress me much either. There are a multitude of standards around the world with many differences between them, some of the differences are quite profound. We here in the US and Canada have a system that works fine despite its flaws. You're seeking to fix that which is not broken.
 
Ingenieur said:
lol

15/1 A GFI
#10 AWG
1 receptacle
size for 1% V drop

get ground bed below 2 ohm
use NGR to limit fault with appropriate protective relaying and UV cb's
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Who ever came up with the 10 outlet theory got bamboozelled into thinking the some crack pot engineer got it Wright? Wrong
 
peter d said:
Number of years in the trade doesn't impress me much, I've met plenty of people with decades in the trade who lacked a basic understanding of the most simple concepts.

As for what the rest of the world does, that doesn't impress me much either. There are a multitude of standards around the world with many differences between them, some of the differences are quite profound. We here in the US and Canada have a system that works fine despite its flaws. You're seeking to fix that which is not broken.
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Despite it's flaws is exactly the point. That is why the manufacturer came out with what they call arc fault circuit interrupter to protect this type of wiring scheme. What they didn' tell everyone is how they function. They work similar to older GFCI technology . They are actually available fault current interrupters design to open when there is not enough short circuit current available with you as many as you want number of outlet scheme that you think is fine
 
sparks1 said:
Despite it's flaws is exactly the point. That is why the manufacturer came out with what they call arc fault circuit interrupter to protect this type of wiring scheme. What they didn' tell everyone is how they function. They work similar to older GFCI technology . They are actually available fault current interrupters design to open when there is not enough short circuit current available with you as many as you want number of outlet scheme that you think is fine
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No, they came out with the AFCI to line their pockets, there was nothing altruistic about it whatsoever.
 
sparks1 said:
Despite it's flaws is exactly the point. That is why the manufacturer came out with what they call arc fault circuit interrupter to protect this type of wiring scheme.
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What type of scheme?

Are you saying AFCI where invented to protect us from fires caused by too many outlets?

Please remember this is your thread about the number of outlets on a circuit.
 
iwire said:
So Mr Expert, can you please explain to me how a properly wired circuit starts a fire due to 'too many outlets'?

I really don't believe you can so your idea or NEC proposal will go nowhere.
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I am an expert and I have allready have explained it over over again. I'm done here beating a dead horse. You can take a horse to water but you can't make him drink it. If you don't get it too bad
I'm done with this post sparking singing off
 
iwire said:
I will also add that a dwelling unit sprinkler system is much less expensive than a commercial system. (Still more than AFCIs but at least sprinklers actually do something)

No threading or hard pipe to run.

Screen-Shot-2015-08-11-at-4.45.21-PM.png
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Please note that a dwelling unit sprinkler system such as you show is an integral part of the water delivery portion of a home plumbing system. The fitting depicted is a flow-through design and is meant to be constantly flushed by the system as it delivers water to the various use points. The one you show looks to be supplied by PEX tubing but it could also be run in copper. It's likely designed to the International Residential Code sec 2904 (ibid). Under this scheme, you'll find water running to places it never went before and homeowners will undoubtedly get some unpleasant surprises from time to time hanging shelves and pictures, or extending an electrical circuit etc.
 
sparks1 said:
Despite it's flaws is exactly the point. That is why the manufacturer came out with what they call arc fault circuit interrupter to protect this type of wiring scheme. What they didn' tell everyone is how they function. They work similar to older GFCI technology . They are actually available fault current interrupters design to open when there is not enough short circuit current available with you as many as you want number of outlet scheme that you think is fine
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That is not how they work. They work by some fancy (proprietary) algorithm that looks at an arc signature. To minimize false trips they do no look for an arc signature of a parallel arcing fault unless the current exceeds 75 amps. They are designed to detect arcing faults which they claim are responsible for the majority of dwelling unit fires.

Many others claim that the majority of dwelling unit fires are caused by joule heating at a poor connection, something an AFCI without
a GFP circuit does no better at detecting and clearing than does a standard thermal magnetic breaker.
 
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