Number of outlets

[sparks1]

How many electrical fires/year are acceptable to you? If that number isnt zero, then you are accepting a compromise of systems. If zero was your answer, sure, it's possible to build a bulletproof (fireproof) electrical system, but at what cost? Even RMC piping, metal boxes, fire annunciation, compartmentalization, and suppression can still catch fire if the right chain of events occurs. You could build the building out of concrete, metal stud, and durarock; the building would be basically fireproof, but then you go and put mattresses, couchs, carpets, drapes, etc. i.e. things that are very flammable and produce toxic smoke in it, and all bets are off.

NFPA results already show that small things, like interconnected smoke detectors, raise survivability of a fire substantially. Personally, I think having sprinklers in houses would do more for all fires than anything an electrician could do even with a blank check. Not all fires are electrical in nature, and many electrical fires are extinguished by de-energizing the equipment, something we simply dont have available on a residential scale (e.g., something that would automatically throw the disconnect from the xfmr upon a fire alarm).

Still we need to have a standard since there is none . One electrician thinks it should be 10 outlets another thinks it should12 , another thinks we he should wire all four bedrooms and the list go on and on. It our liability. It our skin to protect as well as the lives of the occupants.Go tell it to the judge when your dragged into court in of law and tell we have no standard for the number of outlet allowed on a branch circuit. And that you thought it was 10???It's voo doo wiring without one. New Mexico is working to legislate one . All of this should be look at to consider the distance limit of the branch circuit, the number of outlet set s limit based on distance and some say the voltage drop can Handel 10%
I know the guideline are 3% and 5% respectively maybe this could set at 10% we meet to set real limits and come up definitive standard

 

[George Stolz]

Go tell it to the judge when your dragged into court in of law and tell we have no standard for the number of outlet allowed on a branch circuit.

:rotflmao:

Melodramatic much? Do you have one case in the last 120 years on planet Earth where an EC stood trial for the number of receptacles he put on a circuit?

It's voo doo wiring without one.

It's a tremendous responsibility, but I haven't met an electrician yet who was not up to the task.

New Mexico is working to legislate one .

Then they are led by nancing fools.

I know the guideline are 3% and 5% respectively maybe this could set at 10% we meet to set real limits and come up definitive standard

Perhaps you can be quiet until you can demonstrate a real safety issue with the rules as they sit. This blind, short-sighted, mind-numb hand-wringing is precisely what continues to ruin the NEC cycle after cycle, because when the manufacturers do it the CMP sometimes listens.

 

[kwired]

Your are being condescending and speaking to us as if we are clueless or callous or both

like you see something 1000's of others do not and ingnoring all the education and experience of those who write the Code
we are 't morons (I except myself lol)

...and those that brought AFCI requirements into the NEC

Now I probbly derailed the thread:angel:

This blind, short-sighted, mind-numb hand-wringing is precisely what continues to ruin the NEC cycle after cycle, because when the manufacturers do it the CMP sometimes listens.

:thumbsup:

 

[Ingenieur]

Still we need to have a standard since there is none . One electrician thinks it should be 10 outlets another thinks it should12 , another thinks we he should wire all four bedrooms and the list go on and on. It our liability. It our skin to protect as well as the lives of the occupants.Go tell it to the judge when your dragged into court in of law and tell we have no standard for the number of outlet allowed on a branch circuit. And that you thought it was 10???It's voo doo wiring without one. New Mexico is working to legislate one . All of this should be look at to consider the distance limit of the branch circuit, the number of outlet set s limit based on distance and some say the voltage drop can Handel 10%
I know the guideline are 3% and 5% respectively maybe this could set at 10% we meet to set real limits and come up definitive standard

Me: your honor 10 is code compliant, there is no code related to this issue
conductor was sized for 5% Vd but that is NOT code but good practice
I complied with the Code, good practice and performed due diligence
the closest sizing guideline is the commercial 180/va each
1800 va / 114 vac = <16 A
16 (or 80%) is the max for a 20 A ckt

judge: you are excused and may I say an exemplary example of the profession
and case dismissed!!! Sir you have a good case for a lawsuit for malicious and frivilous legal abuse

 

[kwired]

Me: your honor 10 is code compliant, there is no code related to this issue
conductor was sized for 5% Vd but that is NOT code but good practice
I complied with the Code, good practice and performed due diligence
the closest sizing guideline is the commercial 180/va each
1800 va / 114 vac = <16 A
16 (or 80%) is the max for a 20 A ckt

judge: you are excused and may I say an exemplary example of the profession
and case dismissed!!! Sir you have a good case for a lawsuit for malicious and frivilous legal abuse

Is a judge going to understand any of the technicalities or are the litigants going to bring in their own "experts" to be questioned and whoever does the better job of convincing the judge/jury of what was right or wrong wins this particular aspect of the lawsuit?

 

[sparks1]

Is a judge going to understand any of the technicalities or are the litigants going to bring in their own "experts" to be questioned and whoever does the better job of convincing the judge/jury of what was right or wrong wins this particular aspect of the lawsuit?

There is no constructive discussion here just personnel opinions and simply put a whole lot blind ignorance
Sparks out!!

 

[Ingenieur]

Is a judge going to understand any of the technicalities or are the litigants going to bring in their own "experts" to be questioned and whoever does the better job of convincing the judge/jury of what was right or wrong wins this particular aspect of the lawsuit?

Most are settled out of court
like 90%+
most of the rest arbitration which are heard by subject matter experts who consult their own experts

but the judge/jury would understand
no code applies
and it is not the defendents responsibility to write a code

you have to break it down so the judge/jury DOES understand

 

[kwired]

One can run one receptacle per branch circuit just to cover himself from some worst case scenarios - but probably will be underbid every time:happyyes:

 

[Ingenieur]

There is no constructive discussion here just personnel opinions and simply put a whole lot blind ignorance
Sparks out!!

I concur with the above

And the reason no discussion is that there is no issue

 

[Ingenieur]

One can run one receptacle per branch circuit just to cover himself from some worst case scenarios - but probably will be underbid every time:happyyes:

lol

15/1 A GFI
#10 AWG
1 receptacle
size for 1% V drop

get ground bed below 2 ohm
use NGR to limit fault with appropriate protective relaying and UV cb's

 

[iwire]

Why is there no NEC standard for the number of outlets allowed on a branch circuit?

Well one reason is the number of outlets connected to the circuit has very little to do with the load on the circuit.

Keeping it simple, is a single circuit feeding one bedroom more likely to be overloaded with more receptacles in the room?

 

[George Stolz]

There is no constructive discussion here just personnel opinions and simply put a whole lot blind ignorance
Sparks out!!

Let's see if the appropriate code reference clears up your blind ignorance:

90.1 Purpose.

(A) Practical Safeguarding. The purpose of this Code is the practical safeguarding of persons and property from hazards arising from the use of electricity. This Code is not intended as a design specification or an instruction manual for untrained persons.

(B) Adequacy. This Code contains provisions that are considered necessary for safety. Compliance therewith and proper maintenance results in an installation that is essentially free from hazard but not necessarily efficient, convenient, or adequate for good service or future expansion of electrical use.

This is the first section of the Code. It says that an unsubstantiated prejudice of one installation over another should not carry the weight of law. The Code exists to keep people safe from shock and fire, not as an arbitrary design standard. Your opinion does not belong in the code unless you can point to a true demonstrable safety hazard. You can wallpaper a wall in a house with receptacles and there will not be a fire, period. Prove otherwise and we will listen, I promise.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

So the bottom line here is ...that some would suggest it is better to do nothing at all and everthing is fine
I believe we need s safer standard to reduce the number of electrical fires . Talk to you local fire chiefs for stats on the number fire caused by electrical wiring problems. We do needto have alimit on the number of outlets .you can't just assume nothing is going to happenyou can't just keep on adding outlet s and not take into account that the additional distance and resistance may cause the breaker to fail to open
Let get it right!

And if they tell the truth they will say when really don't know and there is electrical equipment or wiring in the area of the point of origin, their report will say the case was electrical.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

....
NFPA results already show that small things, like interconnected smoke detectors, raise survivability of a fire substantially. Personally, I think having sprinklers in houses would do more for all fires than anything an electrician could do even with a blank check. Not all fires are electrical in nature, and many electrical fires are extinguished by de-energizing the equipment, something we simply dont have available on a residential scale (e.g., something that would automatically throw the disconnect from the xfmr upon a fire alarm).

Actually since the percentage of dwelling unit fires that are said to be of electrical origin is less than 15% of the total number of electrical fires, we would be much better off from a life safety perspective to put the money that is required for AFCIs towards the cost of a fire sprinkler system.

Our local code permits you to delete the AFCIs if you install a code compliant sprinkler system.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

Still we need to have a standard since there is none . One electrician thinks it should be 10 outlets another thinks it should12 , another thinks we he should wire all four bedrooms and the list go on and on. ....

Those are design issues and have no place in the NEC.

 

[readydave8]

There is no constructive discussion here just personnel opinions and simply put a whole lot blind ignorance
Sparks out!!

You say we need a limit on # of receptacles on a circuit.

Is this your personal opinion?

Is your personal opinion a personal opinion?

Or do you somehow know things that others don't? Because of their blind ignorance?

Stay calm.

 

[480sparky]

Ok the problem lies with adding more resistance for every outlet that you may add . More resistance more vd
.........

So which is more dangerous: 20 receps with a total of 100' of circuit conductor, or one recep that's 2000' away from the panel?



Either way, there's already a simple, elegant solution: Upsize the conductor for voltage drop.

..........You can wallpaper a wall in a house with receptacles ...........

Sorry, I couldn't resist!

 

[kwired]

So which is more dangerous: 20 receps with a total of 100' of circuit conductor, or one recep that's 2000' away from the panel?



Either way, there's already a simple, elegant solution: Upsize the conductor for voltage drop.

Sorry, I couldn't resist!

That is an old photo that isn't compliant anymore - they need to be tamper resistant

 

[Little Bill]

That is an old photo that isn't compliant anymore - they need to be tamper resistant

Don't need to be till they need replacing, all look good to me!

 

[kwired]

Don't need to be till they need replacing, all look good to me!

Old picture in a new thread, they need to be TR