Range plug

[jap]

Are you stating that you have NEVER committed an NEC sin? :jawdrop: I guess you’ll be at St. Peter’s right hand judging me and others when that time comes.

I guess I am some what of a Saint, since, I don't take things off of a required GFI circuit or a required AFCI circuit just to collect the dough.
If someone else wants to, they're more than welcome after I collect and am gone.

JAP>

 

[jap]

It's not our responsibility to plug the range in.

Just to put in what's required to feed it.

JAP>

 

[goldstar]

I guess I am some what of a Saint, since, I don't take things off of a required GFI circuit or a required AFCI circuit just to collect the dough.
If someone else wants to, they're more than welcome after I collect and am gone.

JAP>

Amen Brother! I wish I could be as Pius as you (with respect to the NEC) and had your $$$. If this were a problem I could correct I would do so before I committed that sin. However, I decided a long time ago that I would go into business to make $$$ and not be a banker. This is not just about collecting $$$. In all fairness to the HO and the EC, you can’t have an appliance store deliver a dozen ranges until you find one that won’t trip a GFCI receptacle. The same applies to AFCI and GFCI devices.

A side bar to manufacturers - make products that work in accordance with the NEC. Don’t make it an EC’s problem.

 

[jap]

Amen Brother! I wish I could be as Pius as you (with respect to the NEC) and had your $$$. If this were a problem I could correct I would do so before I committed that sin. However, I decided a long time ago that I would go into business to make $$$ and not be a banker. This is not just about collecting $$$. In all fairness to the HO and the EC, you can’t have an appliance store deliver a dozen ranges until you find one that won’t trip a GFCI receptacle. The same applies to AFCI and GFCI devices.

A side bar to manufacturers - make products that work in accordance with the NEC. Don’t make it an EC’s problem.

Who says I cant make the appliance store deliver however many ranges it takes until I find one that doesn't trip the GFI?

If something goes South, and, you're the one who unplugged a cord from a required GFI outlet and plugged it into a standard just to get someone by
no amount of money you'll ever make will make it worth it.

JMHO but that's just me.


JAP>

 

[goldstar]

Who says I cant make the appliance store deliver however many ranges it takes until I find one that doesn't trip the GFI?

If something goes South, and, you're the one who unplugged a cord from a required GFI outlet and plugged it into a standard just to get someone by
no amount of money you'll ever make will make it worth it.

JMHO but that's just me.


JAP>

I respect your view and your opinion. I’m an admitted sinner in this case.

 

[kwired]

If I remember a Holt slide, or it may have been elsewhere... the stove was shown as below the countertop- and no gfci required was put on it... but, I know it should trip AFCI because AFCI is designed to trip if a circuit does exactly what the igniter is doing-Arcing.

That said, for gas, a disconnect of 20 amps above the stove and countertop, marked for the stove, preferably fused, is what I would want... In UK I have a switched cooker switch, well marked and out of reach of kids but easily reached by a cook.

That arcing is on the secondary side of an isolation transformer, AFCI shouldn't directly respond to it. The disconnect isn't for the cook, it is for anyone servicing the appliance. Does everyone servicing the appliance use it? Maybe not but is there for them.

Yes to that and I thought the 2017 code (which I don't have because I'm not on it) required all residential kitchen receptacles to be GFI in addition to AFCI protected.

-Hal

GFCI only required for receptacles serving counter tops or within six feet of a sink in a dwelling kitchen.

I will try to be as clear as I possibly can regarding this and I hope I don’t come across in a sarcastic manner. I would venture to say that the VAST majority of EC’s here in the forum are in business to make $$$. We are not here to pay homage to the NEC bible but we look to that bible as our guide. But, the actual Bible tells us that we are ALL sinners.

Having said that, I will always follow the rules of the NEC and if a GFCI-AFCI protected circuit is required I will install it. By the same token, if an igniter is causing a problem with that circuit I will commit a sin and remove the range-cooktop from that circuit in order to allow the job to progress and collect my $$$. It’s the manufacturer’s problem (of either the range or the protection device) and not mine or my customers.

For all of those who do not agree with me “Let he among you cast the first stone.”:happyyes:

First, GFCI not required on this receptacle, unless it also serves a countertop or is within six feet of the sink, and even that may be considered to be behind a barrier (the range) and not required to be GFCI protected.

But removal or bypassing of GFCI's because they are tripping isn't something I generally do without serious consideration first. First question is why is it tripping? If it worked before and suddenly started tripping, something likely has changed. One of the most common places I get requests to remove a GFCI is for pond pumps. 99.99% of the time I always find there is a ground fault and the device is doing what it is supposed to do.

Had a customer once tell me the freezer in their garage kept tripping GFCI and the appliance guy told them they needed to eliminate the GFCI. I found a fault in the freezer and even narrowed down the faulting component and told them to get the appliance guy back and what to look at.

If you just eliminate the GFCI and not find out what is really going on you are setting up for situation of potential shock/electrocution, which if aren't bothered by potentially injuring or killing someone is still kind of counterproductive when it comes to making money, with the potential lawsuits and bad reputation you may get from that.

 

[jap]

That arcing is on the secondary side of an isolation transformer, AFCI shouldn't directly respond to it. The disconnect isn't for the cook, it is for anyone servicing the appliance. Does everyone servicing the appliance use it? Maybe not but is there for them.

GFCI only required for receptacles serving counter tops or within six feet of a sink in a dwelling kitchen.

First, GFCI not required on this receptacle, unless it also serves a countertop or is within six feet of the sink, and even that may be considered to be behind a barrier (the range) and not required to be GFCI protected.

But removal or bypassing of GFCI's because they are tripping isn't something I generally do without serious consideration first. First question is why is it tripping? If it worked before and suddenly started tripping, something likely has changed. One of the most common places I get requests to remove a GFCI is for pond pumps. 99.99% of the time I always find there is a ground fault and the device is doing what it is supposed to do.

Had a customer once tell me the freezer in their garage kept tripping GFCI and the appliance guy told them they needed to eliminate the GFCI. I found a fault in the freezer and even narrowed down the faulting component and told them to get the appliance guy back and what to look at.

If you just eliminate the GFCI and not find out what is really going on you are setting up for situation of potential shock/electrocution, which if aren't bothered by potentially injuring or killing someone is still kind of counterproductive when it comes to making money, with the potential lawsuits and bad reputation you may get from that.

Very well put.

Thanks,

JAP>

 

[Craigv]

Who says I cant make the appliance store deliver however many ranges it takes until I find one that doesn't trip the GFI?

If something goes South, and, you're the one who unplugged a cord from a required GFI outlet and plugged it into a standard just to get someone by
no amount of money you'll ever make will make it worth it.

JMHO but that's just me.


JAP>

To clarify what I wrote earlier, I agree completely that unplugging a misfired range from a *required* GFCI is within my realm. I didn't state or imply that I would then plug the range into a standard receptacle if GFCI was required. My responsibility and authority ends at the receptacle, or outlet in the case of hardwired appliances. I can't modify or repair new in-warranty appliances.

 

[jap]

To clarify what I wrote earlier, I agree completely that unplugging a misfired range from a *required* GFCI is within my realm. I didn't state or imply that I would then plug the range into a standard receptacle if GFCI was required. My responsibility and authority ends at the receptacle, or outlet in the case of hardwired appliances. I can't modify or repair new in-warranty appliances.

Well Hallelujah then!!!


JAP>

 

[goldstar]

That arcing is on the secondary side of an isolation transformer, AFCI shouldn't directly respond to it. The disconnect isn't for the cook, it is for anyone servicing the appliance. Does everyone servicing the appliance use it? Maybe not but is there for them.

Agreed

GFCI only required for receptacles serving counter tops or within six feet of a sink in a dwelling kitchen.

First, GFCI not required on this receptacle, unless it also serves a countertop or is within six feet of the sink, and even that may be considered to be behind a barrier (the range) and not required to be GFCI protected.

OK. I agree with that. My argument was that if the range ended up on a GFCI circuit I would remove it if it presented a problem.

But removal or bypassing of GFCI's because they are tripping isn't something I generally do without serious consideration first. First question is why is it tripping? If it worked before and suddenly started tripping, something likely has changed. One of the most common places I get requests to remove a GFCI is for pond pumps. 99.99% of the time I always find there is a ground fault and the device is doing what it is supposed to do.

I am willing to take a 1st eschelon approach to troubleshooting the problem. I am not going to spend an exhorbatant amount of time to find the problem. It shouldn’t be made my problem.

 

[Adamjamma]

Wierd thought on this question:
Ok- original wiring is for 50 amp plug. Now, we are alowed to supply cooking appliances from this as long as they do not exceed the breaker, such as a wall oven and separate stove... but what about feeding only the sparkers and electrics of a gas range''' which is 120v15amps.. at least on my stove...

is it ok to simply adapt the 50 amp plug for this?
Because it is a stove, is it still exempt from the gfci?

Or, does it now fall under the afci gfci rules?

Of course, if the stove manufacturers simply provided a standardized stove plug on their stoves, no matter the usage requirements, we would not need to argue what is needed!

 

[Craigv]

Wierd thought on this question:
Ok- original wiring is for 50 amp plug. Now, we are alowed to supply cooking appliances from this as long as they do not exceed the breaker, such as a wall oven and separate stove... but what about feeding only the sparkers and electrics of a gas range''' which is 120v15amps.. at least on my stove...

is it ok to simply adapt the 50 amp plug for this?
Because it is a stove, is it still exempt from the gfci?

Or, does it now fall under the afci gfci rules?

Of course, if the stove manufacturers simply provided a standardized stove plug on their stoves, no matter the usage requirements, we would not need to argue what is needed!

Well, maybe, but it wouldn't be simple. An appliance cord would be far too small for a 6-50P...both the clamp and the terminal wire range. Changing out the cord set might void the appliance listing. Then you'd have a 15a appliance on a circuit protected by a 50 amp OCPD.

 

[kwired]

Agreed

OK. I agree with that. My argument was that if the range ended up on a GFCI circuit I would remove it if it presented a problem.

I am willing to take a 1st eschelon approach to troubleshooting the problem. I am not going to spend an exhorbatant amount of time to find the problem. It shouldn’t be made my problem.

Eliminating a GFCI when it is required isn't something you should do without evaluating your liability for doing so either. Like you said if GFCI wasn't required in the first place, then it isn't a big deal.

I got called today, guy said GFCI tripped on a lift pump in his basement and it flooded some. Wanted to know if we need that GFCI - yes we do because of location of the receptacle, we need to figure out why it tripped and not just eliminate the GFCI. I did put one of those GFCI's with trip indication alarm, but apparently it didn't get anyone's attention before flooding, even though the bathroom that it is associated with is on adjacent side of wall. He did tell me it stopped beeping when he reset it, so the alarm was working.

 

[jap]

My argument was that if the range ended up on a GFCI circuit I would remove it if it presented a problem.

Come on now....in post 28 it was indicated that the GFI receptacle would be replaced or removed from the GFI protected circuit if there was a problem.

There's a big difference in changing the circuit configuration and simply unplugging the range from the outlet to clear the problem.

Oh well. As long as we're approaching this from a Biblical perspective, I guess if one can wire a new house and afford to install a backup non GFI protected outlet near a required GFI protected outlet just in case, then I must be preaching to the choir.

JAP>

 

[jap]

I do respect your point of view though.

Some think that standard outlets (that aren't protected by an arc fault or a ground fault) are a thing of the past. Not so. Not yet anyway.

If I can prove to myself that a receptacle (that an igniter is plugged into that's causing trouble) is in a location that doesn't require it to be GFI protected,then I'd change it out too.

JAP>

 

[kwired]

Come on now....in post 28 it was indicated that the GFI receptacle would be replaced or removed from the GFI protected circuit if there was a problem.

There's a big difference in changing the circuit configuration and simply unplugging the range from the outlet to clear the problem.

Oh well. As long as we're approaching this from a Biblical perspective, I guess if one can wire a new house and afford to install a backup non GFI protected outlet near a required GFI protected outlet just in case, then I must be preaching to the choir.

JAP>

Removing from circuit altogether and removing from GFCI protection can be two different things. May be as simple as moving line and load wires at a GFCI receptacle, or possibly installing additional GFCI receptacles even though all on same branch circuit, and eliminating certain amount of "feed thru" protection scheme.

 

[romex jockey]

from the '17>>>

210.8(B) Other Than Dwelling Units. All single-phase receptacles
rated 150 volts to ground or less, 50 amperes or less and three-
phase receptacles rated 150 volts to ground or less,
100 amperes or less installed in the following locations shall
have ground-fault circuit-interrupter protection for personnel.

~RJ~

 

[kwired]

from the '17>>>




~RJ~

Yes, if a non dwelling kitchen what we have been talking about does require GFCI protection, and after 2017 NEC now includes a 50 amp range receptacle also.

 

[jap]

Removing from circuit altogether and removing from GFCI protection can be two different things. May be as simple as moving line and load wires at a GFCI receptacle, or possibly installing additional GFCI receptacles even though all on same branch circuit, and eliminating certain amount of "feed thru" protection scheme.

The whole point is, if the outlet that the igniter is plugged into is in a location that requires GFI Protection, and the igniter is causing the GFI to trip, I don't see any other resolution than for the home owner to call the appliance store and have them keep bringing ranges out until there is one found that won't trip the GFI.

Either that, or, move it to a location that doesn't require it.

I agree it's not our job to find an appliance that wont trip the GFI, and, it may make us look like we're incompetent or the problem is on our side to the GC or the Homeowner when it isn't, but, that's when you got to strap up and stand your ground.

Not go doing things you shouldn't that's against code, or, puts you at liability and others in danger just to save face.

JAP>

 

[Craigv]

Yes, if a non dwelling kitchen what we have been talking about does require GFCI protection, and after 2017 NEC now includes a 50 amp range receptacle also.

Which article requires this?