Range plug

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Adamjamma said:
Ok.. clarification please... the rue of 6 feet from the sink --- if a stove is placed on an adjoining wall- it is four feet from corner of wall and sink is 3 feet from corner of wall, does that count as needing gfci? or outside the limits?
Same idea basically... stove is on an island, with walkway dividing... again a gas stove..lol...or a cooktop only...

Residential...
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Good question. The Code is unclear how to measure 6 ft from edge of sink to receptacle. Strictly plan view horizontally, not adding for vertical distance? This would make a huge difference, if the method was to follow the path a cord would take.

The passage immediately before sub part (A) says to measure the path a cord would take from appliance to receptacle. Great, but that doesn't help us determine the distance of a receptacle from the sink. So do we take the distance a cord in the recep would take to the sink without piercing hard objects? Or is it measured as in a 2D plan view, where vertical distance isn't factored? My preferred assumption is the former, as that is more lenient and "logical"....
 
Ok, taking a 6 foot cord, and attaching it to the receptacle box... in first case, it would not touch the edge of the sink, due to the cabinets.

In second case, touches appliance but again, does not touch sink...

yet both, using ruler on paper, are under the 6 foot rule

so, it would depend upon inspector but... both cases, the plug is under the level of the counter and almost at floor.

However, now required to gfci garbage disposal and that is under the sink...
 
Craigv said:
Good question. The Code is unclear how to measure 6 ft from edge of sink to receptacle. Strictly plan view horizontally, not adding for vertical distance? This would make a huge difference, if the method was to follow the path a cord would take.

The passage immediately before sub part (A) says to measure the path a cord would take from appliance to receptacle. Great, but that doesn't help us determine the distance of a receptacle from the sink. So do we take the distance a cord in the recep would take to the sink without piercing hard objects? Or is it measured as in a 2D plan view, where vertical distance isn't factored? My preferred assumption is the former, as that is more lenient and "logical"....
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2017 clarified this (at least better than before), with the wording just before 210.8(A) that I mentioned before ..."without piercing a floor, wall, ceiling, or fixed barrier or passing through a door, doorway or window. Kind of leaves behind an appliance somewhat questionable may or may not be considered behind a fixed barrier. Fastened in place appliance I'd say is definitely a fixed barrier though.
 
kwired said:
2017 clarified this (at least better than before), with the wording just before 210.8(A) that I mentioned before ..."without piercing a floor, wall, ceiling, or fixed barrier or passing through a door, doorway or window. Kind of leaves behind an appliance somewhat questionable may or may not be considered behind a fixed barrier. Fastened in place appliance I'd say is definitely a fixed barrier though.
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That's the passage I referred to for AdamJamma. The small problem with using that passage is that it does not fit the circumstances. The measurement they specifically defined is between receptacle and appliance, not sink. They could and should have written "...appliance, or the distance a cord would take from receptacle to the edge of a sink". Or they should have defined how to measure in the sub-part. They went to all the trouble to let us know that a receptacle in another room, or accessed through a window, or UP OR DOWNSTAIRS wasn't included, but couldn't explain clearly how to measure from the most common element in a kitchen...the sink.
 
Well, if the outlet is behind the stove and near the base of the stove, then it must come two feet out to edge of cabinet before heading toward the sink...plus two feet up... so figure that my own kitchen the outlet is further than 6 feet... based on rise, run and angles involved... at least the one spot...Whew... add to that the fact it is above 20 amps...

but the UK now has the RCD requirement to 32 amps..lol...
 
Craigv said:
That's the passage I referred to for AdamJamma. The small problem with using that passage is that it does not fit the circumstances. The measurement they specifically defined is between receptacle and appliance, not sink. They could and should have written "...appliance, or the distance a cord would take from receptacle to the edge of a sink". Or they should have defined how to measure in the sub-part. They went to all the trouble to let us know that a receptacle in another room, or accessed through a window, or UP OR DOWNSTAIRS wasn't included, but couldn't explain clearly how to measure from the most common element in a kitchen...the sink.
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I don't have any problems with how it is worded. If you plugged a six foot long cord into the receptacle and it is too short to put the end within the bowl of the sink, it is outside the GFCI protection requirement zone. If it must pass through a door, window or other barrier to reach it is also outside the zone.

Only thing that maybe needs clarification is behind an appliance where there is no barrier except the appliance itself, then it may be questioned if the appliance is indeed a barrier for this determination or not.
 
kwired said:
If you plugged a six foot long cord into the receptacle and it is too short to put the end within the bowl of the sink, it is outside the GFCI protection requirement zone.
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And that's where my problem is with this rule.

The wording doesn't allow for whatever is attached to the end of the cord.

You might have a 6' CORD that doesn't reach inside the bowl, but, if that cord happened to be attached to something that would reach the inside of the bowl, it would still be dangerous.

It simply needs to be re-written, without reference to any cord length, otherwise, this will always be a never ending discussion in my opinion.

JAP>
 
jap said:
And that's where my problem is with this rule.

The wording doesn't allow for whatever is attached to the end of the cord.

You might have a 6' CORD that doesn't reach inside the bowl, but, if that cord happened to be attached to something that would reach the inside of the bowl, it would still be dangerous.

It simply needs to be re-written, without reference to any cord length, otherwise, this will always be a never ending discussion in my opinion.

JAP>
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It didn't reference cord length before, and we had confusion at times on what needed protection and what didn't when it came to the six foot distance applications, this was an attempt to clarify that.

If you can come up with better wording submit it, or else live with what we have for now.
 
kwired said:
It didn't reference cord length before, and we had confusion at times on what needed protection and what didn't when it came to the six foot distance applications, this was an attempt to clarify that.

If you can come up with better wording submit it, or else live with what we have for now.
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Well I guess I will live with it K-Wired, that wasn't my point, my point was , as you can see from all the confusion it creates that it's still not written well.

JAP>
 
jap said:
Well I guess I will live with it K-Wired, that wasn't my point, my point was , as you can see from all the confusion it creates that it's still not written well.

JAP>
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Well I guess the whole code isn't really written that well, as there is always someone confused by pretty much any part of it;)
 
kwired said:
Well I guess the whole code isn't really written that well, as there is always someone confused by pretty much any part of it;)
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As a matter of fact, you're right.

So, when would you like to get together and start ironing things out? :)


JAP>
 
kwired said:
I don't have any problems with how it is worded. If you plugged a six foot long cord into the receptacle and it is too short to put the end within the bowl of the sink, it is outside the GFCI protection requirement zone. If it must pass through a door, window or other barrier to reach it is also outside the zone.

Only thing that maybe needs clarification is behind an appliance where there is no barrier except the appliance itself, then it may be questioned if the appliance is indeed a barrier for this determination or not.
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What appliance? This is the distance from a receptacle to a sink, or for that matter, a bathtub or shower stall. They are wording it as if a sink, tub, or shower are cord-connected appliances. That's vague, arguable, and rather ridiculous given that this was an attempt to clarify a simple concept: how do we measure from these objects to a receptacle?

I would absolutely take the stance as you wrote, that I should run a cord from receptacle to sink edge, and measure that path. But I can easily see an inspector say this is a horizontal measurement because the clarification doesn't apply to measuring from something other than what's specified...an appliance, so he chooses to take the most conservative approach. And then we have a disagreement, thanks to this well-written document. ;)
 
Craigv said:
What appliance? This is the distance from a receptacle to a sink, or for that matter, a bathtub or shower stall. They are wording it as if a sink, tub, or shower are cord-connected appliances. That's vague, arguable, and rather ridiculous given that this was an attempt to clarify a simple concept: how do we measure from these objects to a receptacle?

I would absolutely take the stance as you wrote, that I should run a cord from receptacle to sink edge, and measure that path. But I can easily see an inspector say this is a horizontal measurement because the clarification doesn't apply to measuring from something other than what's specified...an appliance, so he chooses to take the most conservative approach. And then we have a disagreement, thanks to this well-written document. ;)
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All the receptacles in a bathroom require GFCI anyway, regardless of where they are located in the room.

(A)(9) really only matters when the tub or shower isn't in a NEC defined bathroom.
 
kwired said:
All the receptacles in a bathroom require GFCI anyway, regardless of where they are located in the room.

(A)(9) really only matters when the tub or shower isn't in a NEC defined bathroom.
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Such rooms exist, but I was simply adding more fuel to the fire. Regardless of how common the outliers are, a receptacle behind a range that's near a sink is quite common, and that doesn't make the article any more clear.
 
Craigv said:
Such rooms exist, but I was simply adding more fuel to the fire. Regardless of how common the outliers are, a receptacle behind a range that's near a sink is quite common, and that doesn't make the article any more clear.
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Receptacle behind an appliance adjacent to a sink is one thing I said still isn't very clear as to the intent. Strict reading of as is worded - that appliance is not a barrier unless it is fastened in place. Ranges aren't fastened in place. Cooktops and ovens are though.
 
kwired said:
Receptacle behind an appliance adjacent to a sink is one thing I said still isn't very clear as to the intent. Strict reading of as is worded - that appliance is not a barrier unless it is fastened in place. Ranges aren't fastened in place. Cooktops and ovens are though.
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Most new ranges have an anti-tip bracket that is mounted on the wall. This could be considered fastened in place.
 
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