Romex in a Commercial building

[JohnE]

My quote ability is not NEC compliant

You're quoting ability is driving me to another forum.

 

[roger]

Flex, as others have pointed out, we wire per the code if nothing is specked to be over and above.

Most here will not worry about what things look like inside of a wall the same as they would for an exposed installation, this does not mean they will not support the wiring method per the code requirement(s).

We have a facility that requires us to use $1.30 ea MC connectors where a $.38 cent connector would work fine, does your boss go to this extreme? Think of this expense in a job that will have a couple 1000 MC connections.

Roger

 

[Flex]

somewhat, we only use compression fittings for emt, no set screw allowed on our jobs

 

[peter d]

Namecalling is not necessary.

I stand by what I said. It is foolish to apply the same level of quality, workmanship, and materials to each and every job. And those who practice that are fools.

 

[roger]

somewhat, we only use compression fittings for emt, no set screw allowed on our jobs

I'm not talking about compression verses set screw EMT fittings, right now there is very little price difference in steel compression verse steel set screw fittings.

I'm talking about the difference in almost a $1.00 a shot for a lot of pieces.


Roger

 

[Flex]

I stand by what I said. It is foolish to apply the same level of quality, workmanship, and materials to each and every job. And those who practice that are fools.

Then a fool must be a high quality electrician not a shoemaker who cant feed his family unless he cuts corners.

 

[Flex]

I'm not talking about compression verses set screw EMT fittings, right now there is very little price difference in steel compression verse steel set screw fittings.

I'm talking about the difference in almost a $1.00 a shot for a lot of pieces.


Roger

If its spec'd then yea of course he would

 

[roger]

If its spec'd then yea of course he would

No, no, no, that's not the issue at hand.

If it's specked we all get to add it into our quote, this is not the same thing as voluntarily doing it at added expense to ourselves.

Tell your boss that to really be respected by us, he will have go over and beyond the bare minimum and out of the goodness of his heart and at no additional cost to the customer, use these receptacles on all jobs from here on. :grin:

Roger

 

[Flex]

No, no, no, that's not the issue at hand.

If it's specked we all get to add it into our quote, this is not the same thing as voluntarily doing it at added expense to ourselves.

Tell your boss that to really be respected by us, he will have go over and beyond the bare minimum and out of the goodness of his heart and at no additional cost to the customer, use these receptacles on all jobs from here on. :grin:

Roger

Just did a 96 room hotel with all those outlets. You should see the GFI's.

 

[peter d]

Then a fool must be a high quality electrician not a shoemaker who cant feed his family unless he cuts corners.

I believe it was a wise man named Marc Shunk who once stated that there are those who are constantly exploring the limits [of installation practices] in the interest of maximizing their bottom lines.

I happen to believe in that principle myself, and that includes doing code minimum work when necessary, and even work that your would say looks "crappy." I have no shame in that whatsoever.

Furthermore, it's a shame that you have not been able to see the other side of this argument.

 

[Flex]

I believe it was a wise man named Marc Shunk who once stated that there are those who are constantly exploring the limits [of installation practices] in the interest of maximizing their bottom lines.

I happen to believe in that principle myself, and that includes doing code minimum work when necessary, and even work that your would say looks "crappy." I have no shame in that whatsoever.

Furthermore, it's a shame that you have not been able to see the other side of this argument.

I see your argument, i definetly do. I just dont agree with it. Doesnt go any further than that.

 

[JohnE]

Just did a 96 room hotel with all those outlets. You should see the GFI's.

Were they spec'd? If your boss voluntarily included them in the job and they were not in the spec's then he is an idiot. Period. And if that's the case I would be BS if I were you because that would be a couple grand more a week he could be sending your way.

 

[Flex]

Were they spec'd? If your boss voluntarily included them in the job and they were not in the spec's then he is an idiot. Period. And if that's the case I would be BS if I were you because that would be a couple grand more a week he could be sending your way.

Dude im sellin a bridge in Brooklyn if your interested.

 

[JohnE]

Dude im sellin a bridge in Brooklyn if your interested.

I thought so, just checking.

 

[brantmacga]

Dude im sellin a bridge in Brooklyn if your interested.

with all the BS you spewed in this thread, its hard to tell when you think you're telling the truth.




no offense, though.

 

[JohnE]

In all seriousness, I am so sick of hearing all the thoughts about "this is better than that". We can go on forever along those lines.

What I love about this forum is all the knowledge and useful suggestions gained here. Again suggestions. But when I hear "this is hack, we do it this way which is better...." it drives me away from here.

I know that some of the posters here are as good as it gets in this industry. But the direction that some of these threads go is ridiculous.

 

[dnem]

Do you run your raceways between terminations "as the crow flys" ? . Do you install diagonally to save a few feet of wire ? . NEC allows you to do that. .

Sure I do, if that make sense for the job and the customer.

I often work in stores that are very large if the electric room is in one corner and the load is in the other it makes no sense electrically to add to the circuit length for no other reason then to keep the circuit perpendicular to the building. To do so is wasteful and foolish.

The fact that you think taking pride in your work "is wasteful and foolish" tells me alot about what kind of electrician you are.

I suspect that if you even own or run a business your perspective on this issue will change. Until then, you are just patting yourself on the back.

I ran a midsized EC before my inspector days and my perspective was, and is, those that don't take pride in their work have no place working for me.

Now you answer a few of my questions

Do you run raceways or cables diagonally [high to low, low to high] in stud walls ?
Do you consider diagonal runs to be NEC compliant ?
Do you consider diagonal runs to be safe ?
Do you consider diagonal runs to be professional ?

I know you weren't asking me but I will answer, Yes to all of the above, and you couldn't red tag an installation for any of the above so what's the point of the questions?

Roger

This cuts right to the point that I'm making. . There are those that don't even understand pride in work. . It's all about "couldn't red tag an installation".

"couldn't red tag an installation for any of the above so what's the point of the questions?"
The fact that you don't even understand why the questions are being asked tells me more than your answers to those questions would tell me.

Bob, Peter, + Roger
You guys continue just as you are. . Do whatever you wish. . I'm going to continue to be "wasteful and foolish". . I never chased the bottom of the barrel jobs when I was a contractor and I never will. . If I go back into contracting, I'll bid jobs that are looking for "wasteful and foolish" installation. . If I have to get work by leading with a basement price instead of selling quality, then there's no reason to be in business.

I inspect the bottom feeders work everyday. . They literally run thru their jobsites chasing a bid that barely pays their bills. . They are some of the most unhappy electricians I have ever met. . Some of their employees make more than they do. . And their employees are among the worst paid.

 

[brantmacga]

. . . .
Bob, Peter, + Roger
You guys continue just as you are. . Do whatever you wish. . I'm going to continue to be "wasteful and foolish". . I never chased the bottom of the barrel jobs when I was a contractor and I never will. . If I go back into contracting, I'll bid jobs that are looking for "wasteful and foolish" installation. . If I have to get work by leading with a basement price instead of selling quality, then there's no reason to be in business.

I inspect the bottom feeders work everyday. . They literally run thru their jobsites chasing a bid that barely pays their bills. . They are some of the most unhappy electricians I have ever met. . Some of their employees make more than they do. . And their employees are among the worst paid.

that is all speculative information. you have no clue what they're actually doing, so stop pretending you do. i could say based on the above information that you most likely went out of business because you were a poor businessman and refused to do work that you felt was beneath you; turns out nothing was or is. but that's all speculation. Take a poll of customers and you'll find out the majority care not how pretty you installed the work, but only care that it works and is affordable. not selling the customer what they can afford because you think its not worth doing is witless, and the mark of a true amateur.

 

[LJSMITH1]

It seems that much of the discussion here boils down to Perceived Value and Minimum Safety Standards. While the two are not equal, the customer usually has some preconceptions about what a quality and safe installation *might* look like. It might be all 90 degree turns instead of diagonal, it might be a cable support exactly every 12", it might be MC cable where NM is the minimum, it might be two more outlets in a room for more convienience, etc., etc...

Ultimately, what the customer is willing to pay for a job determines the level of effort above the minimums defined in the NEC. Its the same thing as installing one brand of CB's over another (i.e. customer prefers Murray, but EC feels that SquareD is better). Both CB's are UL listed, and will meet the minimum NEC or UL standards. However, one may outperform, which leads to added value and /or cost to the customer. In the end, the customer must set the expectations so that there are no surprises at sign off.

If the customer likes to see wire runs neat and straight..then that's what they get. I feel as long as you offer them the choice (knowing that either will meet NEC minimums), it will promote you or your company as professional and customer driven.

Just my $.02...don't shoot!:roll:

 

[dnem]

that is all speculative information. you have no clue what they're actually doing, so stop pretending you do.

I'm responding to what they tell me. . I not speculating. . They have come right out and said that going over code minimum, when not pressured by the customer, is "wasteful and foolish". . I don't need to guess on their positions, they state what their positions are.

i could say based on the above information that you most likely went out of business because you were a poor businessman and refused to do work that you felt was beneath you; turns out nothing was or is. but that's all speculation.

You're right, you are speculating. . Unlike others, you apparently have no desire to ask any questions before you state your conclusions. . I guess you have it all figured out already so I won't bore you with the facts.

Take a poll of customers and you'll find out the majority care not how pretty you installed the work, but only care that it works and is affordable. not selling the customer what they can afford because you think its not worth doing is witless, and the mark of a true amateur.

I couldn't disagree with you more !
Pointing to a lack of pride in the work by their current EC was my #1 way of selling my installations. . I would point to the job that was currently on site during the open/rough stage and ask the owner or GC if they were confident in the quality of the work being done based on the corner cutting, sloppiness, and look of hurry that they saw before them in the current job by their current EC.

Of course you already know why I went out of business so there's no reason for me to say anything. . I must have screwed up ! . Right ? . Too much of that "wastefulness and foolishness" ! . Right ?