Siemens Panel with Eaton Breakers

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Lady Engineer

Lady Engineer

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New Jersey
Have you ever used another circuit breaker in the Panel with a different manufacturer?

However Siemens does not carry a GEFP or even a GFP breaker. Do you think a Eaton or Square D will fit in the panel will this void the UL approval?
 
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jim dungar said:
Schneider Electric does not condone the use of their breakers (i.e. Square D brand) in other manufacturers' panels, unless they were included in the original panel listing.
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Eaton/Cutler might correct? Siemens does not make GEFP breakers, only GFCI, but I have heat tracing. It's a small dilemma, but a dilemma.

What do you think?
 
I reviewed you post a couple of times and I didn't see any specifics but from the subject matter I would assume that you are refering to a 120/240 1ph3w load center with plug on breakers.
These are the C-H classified breakers. please note that that if listed by UL, C-H classified breakers can be used in other manufacturer's panels. The OEM may object to it but it's on l because they don't want other manufacturers breakers used in their panels even tough those breakers have been UL listed as classified breakers.
If the breaker(s) that you propose to use are not included on this chart you may be SOL.
You may have to consider a sub panel from a manufacturer that has suitable breakers available.
That's the neat part of our job, it is the process of solving problems. If it was easy to do it would require anybody sprecial.
 

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Lady Engineer said:
Have you ever used another circuit breaker in the Panel with a different manufacturer?

However Siemens does not carry a GEFP or even a GFP breaker. Do you think a Eaton or Square D will fit in the panel will this void the UL approval?
Click to expand...

GEFP?
Must be a new one on me...

16 GEFP Acronym Definitions
By Rank / Alphabetical
Georgia Education Finance Program
Glinodo Earth Force Programme
Glitter Egg Fluorescentffentliche Petition
Global Endowments, Foundations & Pension
Global Environment Facility Project
Golden Eagle FlightPrep Provides
Good Eats Fan Page
Gouvernance des Entreprises Familiales et Patrimoniales
Government Efficiency & Financial Planning
Government Efficiency and Financial Planning
Graduate Equity Fellowship Program
Green Engineering Flood Plain
Groupement des Enterprises Franches et Partenaires
Groupement des Entreprises Franches & Partenaires
Groupement des Entreprises Franches et Partenaires
Grupo Espa?ol de Farmacia Pedi?trica

Are you looking for ground fault breaker for a Siemens panelboard? Of course they make them. You must be searching using a term that they don't use.

But to answer your question, generally breaker manufacturers don't bother to go to the expense of listing their breakers to work in competitor's panels. The exception to that is residential commonplace breakers, just because the market is so large for them. but if it's anything remotely specialized that they can't sell a million of, they are not interested.
 
Lady Engineer said:
Have you ever used another circuit breaker in the Panel with a different manufacturer?

However Siemens does not carry a GEFP or even a GFP breaker. Do you think a Eaton or Square D will fit in the panel will this void the UL approval?
Click to expand...

Can you feed another manufacturers panel with a GFP breaker in it? We've had to tap the buss in some Siemens switchgear to feed another GFP breaker enclosure because they didn't make a 1600 amp GFP bucket to fit this existing gear.
 
I think it was UL that brought it up that a AFCI with a 30ma GFP is allowed to protect heat tracing cable and if I remember right most ITE AFCI's have a 30 ma GFP, one of the major electrical mags published this UL view.
 
Jraef said:
GEFP?
Must be a new one on me...

16 GEFP Acronym Definitions
By Rank / Alphabetical
Georgia Education Finance Program
Glinodo Earth Force Programme
Glitter Egg Fluorescentffentliche Petition
Global Endowments, Foundations & Pension
Global Environment Facility Project
Golden Eagle FlightPrep Provides
Good Eats Fan Page
Gouvernance des Entreprises Familiales et Patrimoniales
Government Efficiency & Financial Planning
Government Efficiency and Financial Planning
Graduate Equity Fellowship Program
Green Engineering Flood Plain
Groupement des Enterprises Franches et Partenaires
Groupement des Entreprises Franches & Partenaires
Groupement des Entreprises Franches et Partenaires
Grupo Espa?ol de Farmacia Pedi?trica

Are you looking for ground fault breaker for a Siemens panelboard? Of course they make them. You must be searching using a term that they don't use.

But to answer your question, generally breaker manufacturers don't bother to go to the expense of listing their breakers to work in competitor's panels. The exception to that is residential commonplace breakers, just because the market is so large for them. but if it's anything remotely specialized that they can't sell a million of, they are not interested.
Click to expand...

I think she ment GFEP "ground fault equipment protection" or class B which is no longer used so most just call them GFP or GFEP 30ma or 50 ma, instead of the 5ma for class A I don't think GFPs have been manufactured for a few years now, and its been common to use an AFCI in place as long as it has the GFP (30ma) in it.
 
hurk27 said:
I think she ment GFEP "ground fault equipment protection" or class B which is no longer used so most just call them GFP or GFEP 30ma or 50 ma, instead of the 5ma for class A I don't think GFPs have been manufactured for a few years now, and its been common to use an AFCI in place as long as it has the GFP (30ma) in it.
Click to expand...

No, you are correct, it's a GFEP breaker sorry for the typo. The code requires GFEP for heat tracing. I designed the wiring for a cooling tower, and per NEC 427.22. The contract installed a GFCI breaker, and I want him to take it out, but Siemens does not make a 120V/ 20A 1P GFEP breaker like C-H and Square D.
 
hurk27 said:
I think she ment GFEP "ground fault equipment protection" or class B which is no longer used so most just call them GFP or GFEP 30ma or 50 ma, instead of the 5ma for class A I don't think GFPs have been manufactured for a few years now, and its been common to use an AFCI in place as long as it has the GFP (30ma) in it.
Click to expand...

Square D still has QO "EPD" breakers in current catalog. they are 30mA GFCI's and they even have "EPE" model in 3 pole units that are 100mA devices. http://mydigimag.rrd.com/publication/?i=84624

Last time I was interested in just a single pole "EPD" unit it was a lot less cost to use the protective device offered by same manufacturer as the heat trace equipment.
 
kwired said:
Square D still has QO "EPD" breakers in current catalog. they are 30mA GFCI's and they even have "EPE" model in 3 pole units that are 100mA devices. http://mydigimag.rrd.com/publication/?i=84624

Last time I was interested in just a single pole "EPD" unit it was a lot less cost to use the protective device offered by same manufacturer as the heat trace equipment.
Click to expand...

I wondering if you can use them in a Siemens Panel, the panel is a 400A L/A Panel, rated 240V, 3ph, 4 wire.
 
Lady Engineer said:
I wondering if you can use them in a Siemens Panel, the panel is a 400A L/A Panel, rated 240V, 3ph, 4 wire.
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QO series breakers do not interchange with any other breaker whether listed or not, they are physically different enough it does not happen without major modification of something.
 
kwired said:
QO series breakers do not interchange with any other breaker whether listed or not, they are physically different enough it does not happen without major modification of something.
Click to expand...

I found a BLE or BLEH breaker GFP rated up to 30ma, 1p, 20A, 120V by Siemens. I know NEC says 427.22 6ma to 50ma, but that's the best I can get.
 
Lady Engineer said:
No, you are correct, it's a GFEP breaker sorry for the typo. The code requires GFEP for heat tracing. I designed the wiring for a cooling tower, and per NEC 427.22. The contract installed a GFCI breaker, and I want him to take it out, but Siemens does not make a 120V/ 20A 1P GFEP breaker like C-H and Square D.
Click to expand...

I see no code violation in using a class A GFCI. Keep in mind it will trip at a lower leakage threshold, and that is a decision I guess you will have to make if you want to have that possibly happen. Someone mentioned AFCI - that may work as the ground fault protection provided in those is in that 30 mA range.

Did you get a price for the class B GFCI? When I once did that wanting a QO breaker I found out the protective devices offered by the heat trace equipment accessories was much less costly. Single pole QO was maybe $150.00 or more and was not even stocked by local authorized distributor or any of their other branch locations.
 
hurk27 said:
I think she ment GFEP "ground fault equipment protection" or class B which is no longer used so most just call them GFP or GFEP 30ma or 50 ma, instead of the 5ma for class A I don't think GFPs have been manufactured for a few years now, and its been common to use an AFCI in place as long as it has the GFP (30ma) in it.
Click to expand...
Huh, funny. Never heard that term before. I've always just called them "Equipment GF breakers". But now that I look around, I see that term used all over. By the way, Siemens does make them, both for plug-on (QE/QEH) and for bolt-on (BLE/BLEH) panels. I even worked there, it says Ground Fault Equipment Protection" right in the catalog. Never noticed that.

Brain fart I guess... :slaphead:
 
Lady Engineer said:
I found a BLE or BLEH breaker GFP rated up to 30ma, 1p, 20A, 120V by Siemens. I know NEC says 427.22 6ma to 50ma, but that's the best I can get.
Click to expand...

I am confused is not 30ma trip good for Heat trace? Thats what we use.

Seimens has a 30 ma for almost any of their panels They are usually labeled EPD.
 
kwired said:
I see no code violation in using a class A GFCI. Keep in mind it will trip at a lower leakage threshold, and that is a decision I guess you will have to make if you want to have that possibly happen. Someone mentioned AFCI - that may work as the ground fault protection provided in those is in that 30 mA range.

Did you get a price for the class B GFCI? When I once did that wanting a QO breaker I found out the protective devices offered by the heat trace equipment accessories was much less costly. Single pole QO was maybe $150.00 or more and was not even stocked by local authorized distributor or any of their other branch locations.
Click to expand...

Kwired, that's the problem. You don't see the code violation, unless you have the handbook. The handbook clearly states that GFCI CANNOT be used for heating cables, aka, heat tracing. It's poorly defined in the code. You're supposed to provide a GFEP breaker that has a sensitivity of 6 ma to 50 ma, and as you know GFCI trips at 5 ma.

I'm sure it will work, but it's not really code compliant.
 
Jraef said:
Huh, funny. Never heard that term before. I've always just called them "Equipment GF breakers". But now that I look around, I see that term used all over. By the way, Siemens does make them, both for plug-on (QE/QEH) and for bolt-on (BLE/BLEH) panels. I even worked there, it says Ground Fault Equipment Protection" right in the catalog. Never noticed that.

Brain fart I guess... :slaphead:
Click to expand...

We all have our brain farts some days. :D
 
Sierrasparky said:
I am confused is not 30ma trip good for Heat trace? Thats what we use.

Seimens has a 30 ma for almost any of their panels They are usually labeled EPD.
Click to expand...

Yes, they do, but the contractor said Siemens doesn't make one. I had to really dig for it, but I found it to which he wasn't happy. I don't blame him, Siemens wasn't helpful to him at all.

The code requires a sensitivity up to 50 ma, so there was a little apprehension on my part, but most GFEPs devices are 30ma, except for Cutler Hammer I believe.

Sierrasparky, I agree with you. It's fine, but someone kindly said on here that they are going to revise this code section, because even as of right now they don't even distinguish between having GFCI and GFEP.
 
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