solar vs wind power

[cschmid]

Since I know we have people with experience with both types of alternate energy forms here can we have some insight on what repair issues are associated with both types of installations? how long before they should start to appear? Like life cycles of related equipment stuff like that. I am after nothing more then education.

 

[cruzJD]

Wind turbine = lightning rod.

We do get a good amount of lightning in this part of VA.

 

[Sparky555]

Wind turbine = lightning rod.

We do get a good amount of lightning in this part of VA.

Is that a problem? There are wind farms in Illinois where the terrain is as flat as a pancake. The turbines are the tallest structures for many miles.

 

[SeanD]

In CA, the state rebate program for solar requires that the installer warranty there work for 10 years. Inverters have the same minimum warranty of 10 years. Some of the newer products are warrantied for longer (Enphase is 15 years). Modules are 20 to 25 years on power production. Workmanship is any where from 2 to 10 years.

In the solar industry, the equipment is pretty reliable and unless there is a huge industry down turn the companies will be around to service there products themselves.

 

[cschmid]

In CA, the state rebate program for solar requires that the installer warranty there work for 10 years. Inverters have the same minimum warranty of 10 years. Some of the newer products are warrantied for longer (Enphase is 15 years). Modules are 20 to 25 years on power production. Workmanship is any where from 2 to 10 years.

In the solar industry, the equipment is pretty reliable and unless there is a huge industry down turn the companies will be around to service there products themselves.

I remember reading that the new solar panels design and manufacturing process is going to drive down prices any knowledge on that?? I want to learn more..

I also want to learn about wind turbines not so much the huge ones as the little ones that consumers can install to supplement there electric..

 

[ty]

Solar MODULES have come down in price. Alot.
6 months ago, we were paying around $800 for a 200watt module. Now it is around $500.
Where you have to watch also is on shipping charges of materials.


With a basic roof-mount, grid-tied system, there is very little maintenance. No moving parts. In my area, there is very little accumulation on modules, and pretty much any of it would be washed off by any rainfall.
This differs say to Los Angeles right off the freeway. There, one might have to wash their modules more often, especially from, believe it or not, rubber from vehicle tires.

Sun tracking type systems have moving parts, therefore, more maintenance.
And Battery systems, even more.

Wind turbines have moving parts.

 

[cowboyjwc]

I remember reading that the new solar panels design and manufacturing process is going to drive down prices any knowledge on that?? I want to learn more..

I also want to learn about wind turbines not so much the huge ones as the little ones that consumers can install to supplement there electric..

Lowes is now selling a panel with a built in inverter (Andalay), all that is required is a 240v circuit run up to a roof mounted j box. The mounting brackets are listed for bonding so you don't need any bond wires. Basically figure out how much power you want to generate and buy the appropriate number of panels and off you go. I believe the panels were in the $800+ price range.

I think with wind, unless you are off grid or have plenty of land (there are some smaller systems) is really going to be a big issue with planning departments.

With the solar (just found the paper work) 25 year warrenty on the panels and 15 years on the inverters.

 

[SeanD]

They have been saying that for years. Right now the solar module technology is kinda at a cross roads. Mono and poly-crystalline cells have been around since the space race. These types of cell are reliable if pricey to produce but they are close to reaching peak efficiency (18-20%).

Amorphous silicon (Thin film) is new and shows a lot of promise (It's cheap). The different techniques of creating cells of this type are creating a lot of new products. The problem is reliability. These techniques and products haven't been around for field testing long enough. I expect many companies producing these types of products to have warranty issues in the next 5 to 10 years. The other issue is efficiency. Thin film isn't even close to the efficiency of mono and poly cells.

We had a job where we were competing against thin film modules. We bid 170 poly-crystalline modules. They bid close to 250 thin film.

IMH, the price for solar will be dropping over the next 5 years but it is going to be the industry adapting to supply and demand along with competition for market share that will drive the price down.

Just an FYI, if you run across somebody selling solar modules for a great deal. Do your homework. There is probably a good reason they are so cheap. :grin:

 

[SeanD]

Lowes is now selling a panel with a built in inverter (Andalay), all that is required is a 240v circuit run up to a roof mounted j box. The mounting brackets are listed for bonding so you don't need any bond wires. Basically figure out how much power you want to generate and buy the appropriate number of panels and off you go. I believe the panels were in the $800+ price range.

Just an FYI, the andalay solar module is a combination of a Suntech 175 Watt module w/ and Enphase M190 micro-inverter. Both of which can be purchased for much cheaper separately from a supplier. The only thing proprietary is the racking which is nothing special.

 

[danickstr]

I agree with Sean that big changes are coming to solar. Film will be much better and cheaper, but some customers can't wait 5 years. It's too bad this is such a long payback, since if you factor in a 15 year warranty, you will be better off waiting 5 years, getting the better panel and still come out ahead 10 years later.

Its not what the solar folks want to hear, but the truth is what it is. I have seen solar installs where the power is 10x at noon, then is down to 2x by 3-4 pm. A factor of 5 increase is coming soon and will make a big difference on long-term efficiency.

 

[SeanD]

I think with wind, unless you are off grid or have plenty of land (there are some smaller systems) is really going to be a big issue with planning departments.

In CA, the solar rights act trumps the planning dept. Basically, it states that when it comes to solar the planning department only has the authority to comment on health and safety issues. Comments regarding aesthetics are illegal. Quite a few planning departments have learned this the hard way, after being sued for holding up solar projects. (Los Gatos, CA, Los Altos Hills, CA, to name a few)

That being said. You won't get very far with a building/planning dept, if you are threatening to sue them whenever things don't go your way so sometimes it is better to be nice and give a little to get along. Usually, after the project has been signed off by the city, I send them a nice letter along with copies of the law and past lawsuits to the building official, major and city attorney. They usually make adjustments to there policies pretty quickly. :grin:

 

[SeanD]

I agree with Sean that big changes are coming to solar. Film will be much better and cheaper, but some customers can't wait 5 years. It's too bad this is such a long payback, since if you factor in a 15 year warranty, you will be better off waiting 5 years, getting the better panel and still come out ahead 10 years later.

Its not what the solar folks want to hear, but the truth is what it is. I have seen solar installs where the power is 10x at noon, then is down to 2x by 3-4 pm. A factor of 5 increase is coming soon and will make a big difference on long-term efficiency.

In some ways you are correct about payback but your way of looking at it doesn't tell the whole story.

First let me say, some people should not buy solar for 2 reasons.

1. Utility bill is too low. I have had potential customers tell me they have a $50 bill then flip out at the cost of the system. Their bill is just too low for it to make economic sense. (I have also had them still buy )

2. Shading / Orientation. If you don't have enough roof space to adequately design a system to make a significant dent in your utility bill, why bother?

Here are some of your statements I disagree with and why.

1) Film will be much better and cheaper: Says who, the thin film manufacturers. This industry is famous for wild claims, if I had a penny everytime I heard somebody say modules prices will be half as much next year I could retire.

2) It's too bad this is such a long payback If you look at straight cost to money saved on utility bills paid out, I have seen paybacks ranging from 5 to 15 years. But this doesn't take into account a couple of things:
1: Utility rates are always going up, especially in the higher tiers. If you buy a system that zeros out your utility bill now you won't have to worry about this. Think of it as differed savings.
2: Increase in the value of your property.

There are many more cost adjustments that could be made but in many ways payback is subjective. But I can say that if I purchased a home today. A solar system would be one of my first home improvements because of the return on investment over the life of me owning the home.


3) A factor of 5 increase is coming soon and will make a big difference on long-term efficiencyWorking in the industry I have seen no evidence to support or disprove this. But it brings up an important issue with the solar industry as a whole. Each week I hear from people about the latest and greatest solar industry changing product. 99% are BS. The most recent industry changing product is the micro-inverter and it isn't showing a factor of 5 increase in efficiency. From what I have seen in the industry, change however rapid doesn't come from no where. I know danickstr has an article about new record module efficiencies. Lab tests are not actual mass producible products. I'm not saying dramatic changes won't happen, I would just be careful not to buy into hype. There are a lot of people out there with bridges to sell.

 

[cschmid]

They have been saying that for years. Right now the solar module technology is kinda at a cross roads. Mono and poly-crystalline cells have been around since the space race. These types of cell are reliable if pricey to produce but they are close to reaching peak efficiency (18-20%).

Amorphous silicon (Thin film) is new and shows a lot of promise (It's cheap). The different techniques of creating cells of this type are creating a lot of new products. The problem is reliability. These techniques and products haven't been around for field testing long enough. I expect many companies producing these types of products to have warranty issues in the next 5 to 10 years. The other issue is efficiency. Thin film isn't even close to the efficiency of mono and poly cells.

We had a job where we were competing against thin film modules. We bid 170 poly-crystalline modules. They bid close to 250 thin film.

IMH, the price for solar will be dropping over the next 5 years but it is going to be the industry adapting to supply and demand along with competition for market share that will drive the price down.

Just an FYI, if you run across somebody selling solar modules for a great deal. Do your homework. There is probably a good reason they are so cheap. :grin:

I agree with Sean that big changes are coming to solar. Film will be much better and cheaper, but some customers can't wait 5 years. It's too bad this is such a long payback, since if you factor in a 15 year warranty, you will be better off waiting 5 years, getting the better panel and still come out ahead 10 years later.

Its not what the solar folks want to hear, but the truth is what it is. I have seen solar installs where the power is 10x at noon, then is down to 2x by 3-4 pm. A factor of 5 increase is coming soon and will make a big difference on long-term efficiency.

Nice now I have some brains on the issue..:grin:

I have couple of questions..first I understand the principles of moving parts but in my country in order to achieve efficiency of any sort moving part I feel are necessary and with tracking systems what is the amount of increase one could affect. Second How does outdoor temperature affect the solar unit? like if it is sunny and 35 below zero is the solar panel going to be as effective if it is sunny and 65 degree's? Third do the solar collectors actually need sun or does ultra violet count? I sure hope that makes sense..

So where are the wind turbine folks at..

 

[rexowner]

like if it is sunny and 35 below zero is the solar panel going to be as effective if it is sunny and 65 degree's? Third do the solar collectors actually need sun or does ultra violet count? I sure hope that makes sense

As a general rule, colder is better, the solar cells are more efficient at lower
temps. Of course, you have to get the snow off of them. I just left MN,
visiting relatives, this weekend - man, was it cold!

UV is typically not used by pv solar. There are some inventions out there,
but not current technology.

 

[danickstr]

I got red-inked Here is a link of more solar efficiency info than any electrician wants.

http://www.physorg.com/search/?search=solar+efficiency

 

[cschmid]

I got red-inked Here is a link of more solar efficiency info than any electrician wants.

http://www.physorg.com/search/?search=solar+efficiency

:grin: must not be any normal electrician :grin: Thank you

I would like to design and install solar systems in our area..But first must learn all I can..

 

[ty]

I would like to design and install solar systems in our area..But first must learn all I can..

You really should look at going to a school and taking a hands on course.
Also look into on line courses.
Also, maybe get a subscription to Solar Today, or another solar related magazine. Solar Today is viewable online too.

There is alot to know.
Not only about modules, but also wire sizing, series and parallel circuits, ac and dc currents and voltages, inverters, azmuth, and a whole list of other things...

Not only do you want to install a system, but you want it to work at it's max potential. After all, a customer probably wouldn't be happy if they paid $60,000 for a system and it's output is half of what it should be because it wasn't designed for max output.


We have a system now that a solar company from Maryland installed on a commercial rooftop. They installed the array at 8 degree tilt angle. This is on a flat roof and they had all the space they wanted.
They chose to lay the rows at 8 degrees to keep the rows close together (and they are too close together, so ther is shading issues created be the rows of modules themselves).
But the output is nothing what it should be if they would have had the rows at 30 degree tilt, and spaced correctly.

What I see in this industry, in my area, is that there are alot of salesman. Some, but not many knowledgeable installers, but alot of salesman. And most customers don't even understand what they are buying. They hear "we'll install this size system for this great price and after rebates and incentives you're looking at a 2 year payoff."

 

[cowboyjwc]

In CA, the solar rights act trumps the planning dept. Basically, it states that when it comes to solar the planning department only has the authority to comment on health and safety issues. Comments regarding aesthetics are illegal. Quite a few planning departments have learned this the hard way, after being sued for holding up solar projects. (Los Gatos, CA, Los Altos Hills, CA, to name a few)

That being said. You won't get very far with a building/planning dept, if you are threatening to sue them whenever things don't go your way so sometimes it is better to be nice and give a little to get along. Usually, after the project has been signed off by the city, I send them a nice letter along with copies of the law and past lawsuits to the building official, major and city attorney. They usually make adjustments to there policies pretty quickly. :grin:

Yes you are correct about the solar, our planning dept. found that out the hard way. I was talking about the wind turbines, they don't have to apporve those, yet.

 

[cschmid]

I know about solar today and have read that several times. I am curious as to what online courses are approved as good courses? Just because it is online does not make it a reputable course..

 

[ty]

I know about solar today and have read that several times. I am curious as to what online courses are approved as good courses? Just because it is online does not make it a reputable course..

In My State, an online course would not count for any approval.
It would be for your own knowledge.
In my State, to be approved, one of the requirements is a hands on school.

Have you looked into your local ASES Chapter?