Sub panel in bathroom
- Thread starter VIC1958
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Twoskinsoneman
Senior Member
- Location
- West Virginia, USA NEC: 2020
- Occupation
- Facility Senior Electrician
dwelling?
stickboy1375
Senior Member
- Location
- Litchfield, CT
Its still a bathroom IMO... lets be realistic about this. but we also need the above question answered.
marti smith
Senior Member
240.24 Location in or on Premises.
(E) Not Located in Bathrooms. In dwelling units, dormitories, and guest rooms or guest suites, overcurrent devices, other than supplementary overcurrent protection, shall not be located in bathrooms.
From the 2011
(E) Not Located in Bathrooms. In dwelling units, dormitories, and guest rooms or guest suites, overcurrent devices, other than supplementary overcurrent protection, shall not be located in bathrooms.
From the 2011
stickboy1375
Senior Member
- Location
- Litchfield, CT
Yeah? it says an "AREA" , nothing about a door, and lets face it, we all know when were in a bathroom.
- Location
- Simi Valley, CA
I agree that it's a bathroom. That's like calling it an office when it has a closet, it's still a bedroom.
jwelectric
Senior Member
- Location
- North Carolina
Nothing wrong with having a panel in the bathroom but you can?t put any overcurrent devices in it
My office has a closet does that mean it is a bedroom? As I look around I can?t see a bed nor is there enough room to put one in here either.
kwired
Electron manager
- Location
- NE Nebraska
If you have a small room with nothing in it except a toilet and does not enter the rest of a "bathroom area" would you still call it a bathroom? NEC does not.
If I regularly relieve myself out behind my shop (I live in country) would that be part of a bathroom "AREA"? There is a hydrant in this area so I could wash my hands when done - not exactly a sink but gets it done.
jumper
Senior Member
- Location
- 3 Hr 2 Min from Winged Horses
Let's split hairs and drag this out.....
The question that you must answer is, "is there a bed present on the premisis", if there is, it's is a bed room, or could be a bedroom, or should be a bedroom, or maybe the question should be, "is there a bed available", have you ever slept in this space, oh Auntie Em, Auntie Em,...
Sorry guys, got carried away there, couldn't help myself.
Roger
Twoskinsoneman
Senior Member
- Location
- West Virginia, USA NEC: 2020
- Occupation
- Facility Senior Electrician
FWIW I would have to say often areas are defined by doors but in this situation if I was AHJ I would call the entire area the bathroom even if toilet and sink are separated by a door.
renosteinke
Senior Member
- Location
- NE Arkansas
Code used to say 'no panels in bathrooms,' and went on to define a bathroom as a room with a sink and a toilet, etc. Seems a pretty precise definition, and under it the situation the OP describes would be allowed.
The 'fly in the ointment' is the so-called "Euro-style" bathroom, where the sink and shower are in one room, and the toilet is in a completely separate room nearby, and both rooms open into the main room or main hall. There's also the 'hotel' arrangement where shower might be to one side, the toilet to the other, and the area between having the sinks, yet being open to the bedroom part of the room.
So, 2011 slipped in the word "area,' and now all bets are off. "Area" can mean anything you want it to mean. Heck, I'm gutting my place, and the rewire I plan has the panel on the hall face of the common wall between the bathroom from the hall. Indeed, the panel will sit right next to the shower plumbing, inside the 'shower wall.' Will someone argue that the space inside the shower wall is part of the 'bathroom area?' Stranger things have happened.
This is, alas, what happens when the code tries to make design decisions. It's almost as if archetects deliberately try to confound the code with their creations. The code would be an easy thing to wrote if only everyone lived in the same style house .... but that's not ever going to happen. Never has, never will.
So, where does the answer lie? It lays right at the very beginning of the NEC - which, oddly enough, quite plainly states that the code is in no way a replacement for the AHJ, and the AHJ trumps anything the wizards of Massachusetts may publish. For far too long AHJ's have been playing the dishonest game of telling folks 'it's not my fault, I have to follow the code,' as well as the lazy route of actively campaigning every cycle for the code to take more of the responsibility off their shoulders.
Holt's NEC update book has an illustration of the exact situation described by thr OP, and addresses the 'area' idea rather well. Still, it comes down to defining the extent of the 'area,' and architectural elements help define the 'area.' Such elements may be as substantial as a door or as subtle as a change in the flooring or lighting. By giving the AHJ such a free hand, they've also placed the burden squarely on the AHJ to make the call. AHJ's, by their very nature, are going to paint with as broad a brush as they can.
The 'fly in the ointment' is the so-called "Euro-style" bathroom, where the sink and shower are in one room, and the toilet is in a completely separate room nearby, and both rooms open into the main room or main hall. There's also the 'hotel' arrangement where shower might be to one side, the toilet to the other, and the area between having the sinks, yet being open to the bedroom part of the room.
So, 2011 slipped in the word "area,' and now all bets are off. "Area" can mean anything you want it to mean. Heck, I'm gutting my place, and the rewire I plan has the panel on the hall face of the common wall between the bathroom from the hall. Indeed, the panel will sit right next to the shower plumbing, inside the 'shower wall.' Will someone argue that the space inside the shower wall is part of the 'bathroom area?' Stranger things have happened.
This is, alas, what happens when the code tries to make design decisions. It's almost as if archetects deliberately try to confound the code with their creations. The code would be an easy thing to wrote if only everyone lived in the same style house .... but that's not ever going to happen. Never has, never will.
So, where does the answer lie? It lays right at the very beginning of the NEC - which, oddly enough, quite plainly states that the code is in no way a replacement for the AHJ, and the AHJ trumps anything the wizards of Massachusetts may publish. For far too long AHJ's have been playing the dishonest game of telling folks 'it's not my fault, I have to follow the code,' as well as the lazy route of actively campaigning every cycle for the code to take more of the responsibility off their shoulders.
Holt's NEC update book has an illustration of the exact situation described by thr OP, and addresses the 'area' idea rather well. Still, it comes down to defining the extent of the 'area,' and architectural elements help define the 'area.' Such elements may be as substantial as a door or as subtle as a change in the flooring or lighting. By giving the AHJ such a free hand, they've also placed the burden squarely on the AHJ to make the call. AHJ's, by their very nature, are going to paint with as broad a brush as they can.
Twoskinsoneman
Senior Member
- Location
- West Virginia, USA NEC: 2020
- Occupation
- Facility Senior Electrician
Out of curiosity would also allow the elimination of a 20a bathroom receptacle circuit?
- Location
- Simi Valley, CA
The question that you must answer is, "is there a bed present on the premisis", if there is, it's is a bed room, or could be a bedroom, or should be a bedroom, or maybe the question should be, "is there a bed available", have you ever slept in this space, oh Auntie Em, Auntie Em,...
Sorry guys, got carried away there, couldn't help myself.
Roger
Actually Roger, that's kind of where I was headed with that, but just simplified it instead.
It's like when we plan check medical suites, and they want to call rooms offices so they don't have to wire them per 517. I tell them that you can call it whatever you want, but when you decide that you need more exam rooms, you'll wish that you had wired the whole building per 517.
Oh and by the way, I bet that room that he's calling an office has a smoke alarm in it.:happyyes:
renosteinke
Senior Member
- Location
- NE Arkansas
Twoskins ....
You bring up another "Euro" variation - where the toilet and shower are in one room, and the vanity is set in the main room nearby. You're asking: does this require the 'bathroom circuit?'
IMO, they've dodged the requirement; no bathroom, no bathroom circuit. IMO, I'd run one anyway, as a matter of design. That hair dryer uses the same watts wherever it's plugged in.
Of course, even that gets muddy when the 'vanity' is also the 'kitchen' sink. Heaven help us when we try to figure out where the 'laundry outlet' will go in these single-room residences!
You bring up another "Euro" variation - where the toilet and shower are in one room, and the vanity is set in the main room nearby. You're asking: does this require the 'bathroom circuit?'
IMO, they've dodged the requirement; no bathroom, no bathroom circuit. IMO, I'd run one anyway, as a matter of design. That hair dryer uses the same watts wherever it's plugged in.
Of course, even that gets muddy when the 'vanity' is also the 'kitchen' sink. Heaven help us when we try to figure out where the 'laundry outlet' will go in these single-room residences!
ASG
Senior Member
- Location
- Work in NYC
- Occupation
- Electrical Engineer, PE
"I just bought a 2-bedroom house, but I think I get to decide how many bedrooms there are, don't you? "F* you, real estate lady! This bedroom has an oven in it! This bedroom's got a lot of people sitting around watching TV. This bedroom's over in that guy's house! Sir, you have one of my bedrooms, are you aware? Don't decorate it!" - Mitch Hedberg
Hendrix
Senior Member
- Location
- New England
I have a room that houses a piano, computer, television, built in book shelves, message chair and a couple of guitars. It also has a closit. I call it the library:roll:
stuckinlodi
Member
- Location
- Lodi, Ca, USA
Is the AHJ letting the NEC define a bathroom or is the Building Code definition used? Have the local AHJ using the international Residential Code for ONe and Two Family Dwellings?
No one has questioned it, but I assume there is required workspace for width of depth with the door open hopefully. If the door had to be closed for workspace would everyone agree it creates another problem?
E3401.1 Bathroom An area including a basin, with one or more of the floowing: a toilet, a tub or a shower.
No one has questioned it, but I assume there is required workspace for width of depth with the door open hopefully. If the door had to be closed for workspace would everyone agree it creates another problem?
E3401.1 Bathroom An area including a basin, with one or more of the floowing: a toilet, a tub or a shower.
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