Tesla Car Charger???

[peter d]

I don't know about the USA but the UK grid is just about meeting demand.

Our electrical infrastructure is being held together by glue, duct tape and popsicle sticks in many areas across the country. It's in dire need of upgrading and modernization.

 

[Besoeker]

Our electrical infrastructure is being held together by glue, duct tape and popsicle sticks in many areas across the country. It's in dire need of upgrading and modernization.

No easy or cheap fixes and EVs will further stress it.

 

[iwire]

The average of Urban and Extra Urban is one way.


I routinely get better or much better than the published figure.
My "grocery getter" is fully loaded as motoring parlance goes here. All the boys toys and most of them respond to voice commands. His and her cabin temperature settings, HFT etc. Includes criuse control of course as many cars do these days. I normally set it to the speed limit and stop worrying about being clocked by one of those ubiquitous cameras. A fixed speed does wonders for the fuel consumption.

Well you are special.

Here in the US most folks wont get what EPA ratings are. But they still work to compare one to the other.

 

[iwire]

But it will need an awful lot of money to upgrade the entire electrical infrastructure if/when EVs become the dominant vehicle technology.

Yes it will take a lot of money, and if the investors see profit to be made that money will be available.

I don't know about the USA but the UK grid is just about meeting demand.

Certainly the same in many areas here.

 

[jaggedben]

only solar can provide whats needed, and thats at least 50-100yrs away from being a player in grid power

umm, Germany at moments has gotten nearly 100% of it's power from solar. California on a sunny day gets as much as a quarter of its power from solar. Say what you will about the storage and intermittency issues, solar is already a 'player in grid power,' and 50-100yrs is a ridiculous estimate for that. That could be more like the timeline for when the last non-renewable power sources will be turned off.

 

[iwire]

i'll disagree with you on several points.
1) as a whole, modern gas automobile engine will produce less emissions per mile than the electric producers to make the volts needed to move the best EV same amount of miles.

I doubt that to be the case.

Also factor in the pollution added and fuel and electrical energy used to deliver the petroleum product to the automobile.

2) 50-100 yrs..... i am probably off by about 1,000 yrs. as long as black gold continues to rise to the surface, you are not replacing it and it will remain dominant.

No, not true, as soon as black gold cost consumers more than going electric there will be companies ready to provide those avenues.

3) there is already $$ in solar for daytime use, and its easy to deploy, manage, & maintain (and as clean as you can get), so ask yourself why it has not proliferated. why hasnt the fed mandated that every new home built have 25%(min) of its roof surface covered with ev panels?

Simple, its emerging technology. It still has high costs.

5) gas stations at some point proliferated because it followed the massive ramp-up in automotive assembly lines, of which the 1k cars per day had gas engines put in them. the horse was all those cars with gas engines, the cart being gasoline stations. black gold made it easy to do that. now go look at EV's, how exactly will they pump out 1k EV's per day and convince consumers that the competing gas car is no good even though EV's are more expensive? simply getting the horse for the race is very very difficult. once the horse is there then the "stations" (ev charging, gasoline, etc) will naturally follow. now, if black gold suddenly goes dry, thats a whole other ball of wax.

That is a lot of rambling but if there is money to be made electric cars will be here and will be supplied with power to be charged.

Are there hurdles to overcome? Of course there are.

 

[jaggedben]

3) there is already $$ in solar for daytime use, and its easy to deploy, manage, & maintain (and as clean as you can get), so ask yourself why it has not proliferated.

It has proliferated and is proliferating.
http://www.seia.org/research-resources/solar-industry-data

why hasnt the fed mandated that every new home built have 25%(min) of its roof surface covered with ev panels?

Maybe because, you know ... politics? :slaphead: By the way, some states (California) do have new home regulations to make solar easier and incentives for developers to include it.

4) solar has the inherent issue of night time. this is an issue that can be dealt with using [] battery solutions already on the market and being developed (this part can be a real issue) .

Fixed that for you.

 

[FionaZuppa]

Not sure what you are saying here. EVs differ in whether they have their regen on the brake pedal, the accelerator, or both. Some have it all on the accelerator, and the brake pedal is just for friction brakes; when you are off all pedals you get maximum regen.

Others have it (almost) all on the brake pedal, with the first portion of the brake pedal travel being regen only. Further brake pedal travel starts blending in the friction brakes. For those, when you are off all pedals you are (almost) coasting.

Cheers, Wayne

when you take foot off of ev pedal the car does not de-accelerate, you cannot get regen energy unless you are taking it from kinetic energy, so no, there is no regen when taking foot off of ev go pedal unless you are expecting the car to slow down faster than wind friction dictates. if they are regen brakes then they are not friction based. a mix of regen and friction is wasting energy.

and there's been a few posts since yours.... so i try and answer.

cost of getting fuel to gas stations is baked into the gasoline/gal price. extra emissions for doing that, yes, but again, the totals per kwh still favor oil.

and no, people wont go to EV because oil prices are high, the shear # of available gallons of oil just means the owners of the oil can simply drop their prices to beat any reduction in EV vehicles. oil is plentiful and easy to harvest and refine. EV's are not.

and making newer battery packs? hah, Lithium is the best they have now, a dangerous material in many regards. its a dangerous chemical and it is dangerous in density (aka bat packs).

Simple, its emerging technology. It still has high costs.
That is a lot of rambling but if there is money to be made electric cars will be here and will be supplied with power to be charged.

it is emerging, in a market that already has cheap fuel source. so now they have to compete for whats already out there. and btw, gasoline/diesel engines are also still emerging, newer and better everyday. so if EV is to be a viable alternative, it has to accelerate in development just to catch up, AND, has to be priced at about the same as the existing, otherwise you have little customers.

there is $$ to be made in EV, in a very small % of the market, which usually attracts few investors.

emissions aside, until the EV's are similarly priced against their dino counterparts, nobody is buying EV's at the rate they are buying dino cars.

also remember, solar is a fixed day-time only energy source (impacted dramatically by weather), at any given time you have X # of kwh available. oil on the other hand is a reservoir and the siphon can be dynamically changed according to demand. and let alone the issue of power delivery system that will take billions to upgrade, and billions to add new to support proliferation of EV's need for power. and the risk..... oooops, part of the grid went offline, ok, so the north east sector of the US cant drive today.

its extremely hard to move away from oil based fuels.

 

[wwhitney]

when you take foot off of ev pedal the car does not de-accelerate,

Again, it depends on the design of the car. Some cars are designed so that when you take your foot off both pedals, you get full regen braking. If you want to coast, you have to feather the go pedal appropriately. The brake pedal in those cars controls just the friction brakes.

Which pedal the regen braking is on depends entirely on the car's programming. It's just a user interface issue handled through software.

Cheers, Wayne

 

[jaggedben]

when you take foot off of ev pedal the car does not de-accelerate, you cannot get regen energy unless you are taking it from kinetic energy, so no, there is no regen when taking foot off of ev go pedal unless you are expecting the car to slow down faster than wind friction dictates. if they are regen brakes then they are not friction based. a mix of regen and friction is wasting energy.

Tell that to the millions of Prius owners out there getting better mileage than owners of any other similar class car.

Regenerative breaking happens when you hit the brake of course. It's not a waste of energy, it's recovering energy.

and no, people wont go to EV because oil prices are high, the shear # of available gallons of oil just means the owners of the oil can simply drop their prices to beat any reduction in EV vehicles. oil is plentiful and easy to harvest and refine. EV's are not.

Your talking points are decades out of date. If not for fracking, tar sands, and deepwater oil (think BP and Gulf of Mexico), oil supply would be well below demand and prices would probably be up in the hundreds. Those extraction methods cost more than conventional wells and suppliers cannot just drop their price below their costs.

Solar + batteries are already competitive with gasoline these days. It's about 20cents per kWH, and with a Tesla you get something like 180 miles (conservatively) on 60kWh so about 7 cents per mile. Compare to 30mpg at 1.99 a gallon and that is ... wait for it ... exactly the same.

Now if you are paying average US grid prices and not getting your electricity from solar that you store in your own batteries, then EV fuel costs are already about half as much.

its extremely hard to move away from oil based fuels.

It's really not. It's already happening. It's only going to take a while because of the scale of their use.

 

[Besoeker]

Well you are special.

Of course I am!
My sweet southern belle tells me that on a daily basis.
I'm sure my big hairy handsome dog might have a different POV when I take him out on a dark stormy rainy night to let him check his pee mail. As I have just done. Badass daddy!

Back on topic, sort of.
I'm sure EVs cost less per mile to run than my car however frugal it is with the motion lotion.
But range and recharge times remain a limitation.

 

[iwire]

and there's been a few posts since yours.... so i try and answer.

cost of getting fuel to gas stations is baked into the gasoline/gal price. extra emissions for doing that, yes, but again, the totals per kwh still favor oil.

Feel free to post a source of this.

and no, people wont go to EV because oil prices are high, the shear # of available gallons of oil just means the owners of the oil can simply drop their prices to beat any reduction in EV vehicles. oil is plentiful and easy to harvest and refine. EV's are not.

And you simply prove my point, when the costs are advantageous to the consumer the consumer will go with it. Oil will not always be plentiful.

and making newer battery packs? hah, Lithium is the best they have now, a dangerous material in many regards. its a dangerous chemical and it is dangerous in density (aka bat packs).

Yes, another hurdle.

They had a lot of car fires with gasoline as well.

 

[FionaZuppa]

~3.8grams/mile of CO for a class VIIIb tanker diesel truck.

gas tanker is ~11k gallons. @33.41kwh/gal thats 36.8k kwh per truck load
lets say the tanker drives 500 miles to deliver, thats 1900 grams of CO, or 51.63x10^-3 grams/kwh

factor this into your total emissions footprint for gasoline fuel kwh use. the delivery component is small.

Modeling and estimating vehicle emissions:
www.epa.gov/otaq/models.htm

Converting heavy-duty engine emission rates to in-use heavy-duty truck emission rates:
www.epa.gov/otaq/models/mobile6/r02006.pdf
www.epa.gov/otaq/models/mobile6/r02005.pdf

 

[mbrooke]

No easy or cheap fixes and EVs will further stress it.

IMHO I say it depends on when usage will occur. If EV charging occurs at night during off peak hours the extra load will not stress the system.

 

[Besoeker]

IMHO I say it depends on when usage will occur. If EV charging occurs at night during off peak hours the extra load will not stress the system.

Yes and I covered that - I think it was in another electrical forum.
But, if EVs become the predominant form of transport, a whole street of them charging at the same time would seriously burden the supply capacity.

 

[gadfly56]

Yes and I covered that - I think it was in another electrical forum.
But, if EVs become the predominant form of transport, a whole street of them charging at the same time would seriously burden the supply capacity.

Wouldn't this only be the case if the whole street (or district, town, county, etc) required service upgrades? I presume that the POCO only permits load to be added to the system that it can handle.

 

[gadfly56]

Of course I am!
My sweet southern belle tells me that on a daily basis.
I'm sure my big hairy handsome dog might have a different POV when I take him out on a dark stormy rainy night to let him check his pee mail. As I have just done. Badass daddy!

Back on topic, sort of.
I'm sure EVs cost less per mile to run than my car however frugal it is with the motion lotion.
But range and recharge times remain a limitation.

Dude, when a Southern gal tells you you're "just so special", it isn't a good thing! :blink:

 

[gadfly56]

umm, Germany at moments has gotten nearly 100% of it's power from solar. California on a sunny day gets as much as a quarter of its power from solar. Say what you will about the storage and intermittency issues, solar is already a 'player in grid power,' and 50-100yrs is a ridiculous estimate for that. That could be more like the timeline for when the last non-renewable power sources will be turned off.

ummm, NO, not true. Total renewables in Germany as of 2014 was 24.1% of overall demand, doable only with a confiscatory feed in tariff (FIT) paid by consumers, not big industry which is exempt. Thank God for that, otherwise Germany would be an industrial waste land of shuttered factories.

 

[mbrooke]

Yes and I covered that - I think it was in another electrical forum.
But, if EVs become the predominant form of transport, a whole street of them charging at the same time would seriously burden the supply capacity.

You have a point here. The pole pigs would be overwhelmed if a whole street started charging at the same time in high current fashion.

 

[Besoeker]

Wouldn't this only be the case if the whole street (or district, town, county, etc) required service upgrades? I presume that the POCO only permits load to be added to the system that it can handle.

I've touched on this before in terms of numbers.
The Nissan Leaf, perhaps the most popular EV, has a range that would do me about two days per full charge. Others might get three based on average UK annual milage.
The latest battery is 30kWh. Average UK electrical energy consumption is under13kWh per day. So we are looking at about doubling the residential electrical energy consumption.

Of course timing might help and planned availibility for EVs might mitigate the potential problems. But who would be happy if they could charge their vehicle at certain times on certain days?