Too many outlets

[Mr. Serious]

Check state and local code amendments. OP is in Texas which is right next door to us here in Oklahoma. I know Oklahoma has a statewide code amendment that has also been adopted by many municipalities in the state, prohibiting more than 8 outlets on a 15A circuit or more than 10 on a 20A circuit.

Since we have LED lighting now, I have checked with inspectors in Wagoner County as well as City of Tulsa regarding increasing the amount of lights on a circuit beyond these numbers in the local codes, and in both locations the AHJs said they still want more than one lighting circuit for the whole house, but otherwise it's fine with them if you put as many as you want on the circuit as long as they're all LED lights.

 

[Frank DuVal]

Never under a window.

Because??? It obstructs your view of the window?

It is a good place because furniture is usually never there, but a floor lamp might, to aid in reading in the comfy chair next to the window. And of course up north where HVAC is just a heating system window AC units are still sold.

I still use wired candles, one receptacle under every candle window to a switch, got plenty of extras to last my lifetime. I don't understand battery candles, seems wasteful.

OK, if not under a window, then IN the window sill!

Sillites - Candle For The Window | Electric Window Candles | Flush Mount Receptacle

If you are looking for flush mount receptacles as well as candles for the window, electric window candles and battery operated candles, please review our website. If you are also looking for a round electric receptacle, please visit our website for more details.

www.sillites.com

 

[roger]

I know Oklahoma has a statewide code amendment that has also been adopted by many municipalities in the state, prohibiting more than 8 outlets on a 15A circuit or more than 10 on a 20A circuit.

It's not shown in Oklahoma's 2020 electrical code, is it something they have recently adopted?

https://up.codes/viewer/oklahoma/nfpa-70-2020/chapter/2/wiring-and-protection#220.14

 

[Mr. Serious]

No, it was like that for decades. However, I see they've removed that requirement. My information was from 2014. The state had only adopted the 2014 code as of two years ago, and I haven't kept track well enough since they adopted 2017 and then 2020 soon after that. So, my information was old and out of date. I will have to check the various counties and cities I work in and see if they've also deleted the maximum number of outlets provision.

The one thing that still surprises me is that Oklahoma didn't completely skip adopting the 2017 code since they were two years late with it because of COVID. It's a waste of everyone's time to have a version of the code only in effect for one year.

 

[gadfly56]

Because??? It obstructs your view of the window?

It is a good place because furniture is usually never there, but a floor lamp might, to aid in reading in the comfy chair next to the window. And of course up north where HVAC is just a heating system window AC units are still sold.

I still use wired candles, one receptacle under every candle window to a switch, got plenty of extras to last my lifetime. I don't understand battery candles, seems wasteful.

OK, if not under a window, then IN the window sill!

Sillites - Candle For The Window | Electric Window Candles | Flush Mount Receptacle

If you are looking for flush mount receptacles as well as candles for the window, electric window candles and battery operated candles, please review our website. If you are also looking for a round electric receptacle, please visit our website for more details.

www.sillites.com

Well, actually, in the northeast, that's where you usually find an HVAC outlet. Which is not as dumb as some might think, at first. If you have blistering cold, no matter what windows you have, they're going to get chilly and could cause condensation from the room air. The flow of heat near the window helps to evaporate the water and keep the window moisture-free.

 

[Little Bill]

It's not shown in Oklahoma's 2020 electrical code, is it something they have recently adopted?

https://up.codes/viewer/oklahoma/nfpa-70-2020/chapter/2/wiring-and-protection#220.14

No, it was like that for decades. However, I see they've removed that requirement. My information was from 2014. The state had only adopted the 2014 code as of two years ago, and I haven't kept track well enough since they adopted 2017 and then 2020 soon after that. So, my information was old and out of date. I will have to check the various counties and cities I work in and see if they've also deleted the maximum number of outlets provision.

The one thing that still surprises me is that Oklahoma didn't completely skip adopting the 2017 code since they were two years late with it because of COVID. It's a waste of everyone's time to have a version of the code only in effect for one year.

Tn had that restriction last code cycle we were on (2008). But it was only for AFCI circuits, which were only required for bedrooms back then. People were putting all the bedrooms on one AFCI circuit. The State added the restriction to the number of outlets on an AFCI circuit to prevent that. That may have been what Oklahoma had.

 

[Mr. Serious]

I don't think it was a response to AFCI breakers, I really do think they had that restriction for decades. I'm not finding any very old versions of laws available online to research. So the only reason I have for thinking that I was an apprentice from August to November of 1999, and we did a lot of new house rough-in wiring, and we always put 10 receptacles on each 20A common circuit. We were working under the 1996 NEC at that time. It was long before AFCI was available or required.

 

[TX+ MASTER#4544]

My number 74 reply above continues now with the demand factors as permitted by Section 220.45 General Lighting.
See the definition of Demand Factor, Article 100. After reading the definition found there in that Article, take my word that it is simply a reduction ......"of a part of the system under consideration." You can verify that by looking at several of the tables found in your 2023 NEC book that reflect certain demand factors percentages.
Now, we will use section 220.45 that refers us to T.220.45 Lighting Load Demand Factors. (There's that demand word again)
Our type of occupancy is a dwelling. We will have to include some other Code requirements into this table.
Our general lighting load was 7500 VA:
Dwelling units General Lighting 7,500 VA (see #74 above)
2 Small Appliance Circuits 3,000 VA 210.11 (C) (1)
1 Laundry Circuit 1,500VA 210.11 (C) (2)
Total VA 12,000 VA
First 3,000 VA at 100 % 3,000VA
12,000 - =3,000 VA=9,000VA @35 % 3,150 VA
Total Net Load 6,150 VA
Here's where you would add various other loads like A/C, Range, Dryer, Water Heater, etc. to the total net load.
No calculations for bathroom(s) or garage(s). All you need for a dwelling is permanent provisions for living, sleeping, cooking, and sanitation.
See Article 100 Definitions, Dwelling Unit.
Thank you,
TX+MASTER #4544

 

[roger]

My number 74 reply above continues now with the demand factors as permitted by Section 220.45 General Lighting.
See the definition of Demand Factor, Article 100. After reading the definition found there in that Article, take my word that it is simply a reduction ......"of a part of the system under consideration." You can verify that by looking at several of the tables found in your 2023 NEC book that reflect certain demand factors percentages.
Now, we will use section 220.45 that refers us to T.220.45 Lighting Load Demand Factors. (There's that demand word again)
Our type of occupancy is a dwelling. We will have to include some other Code requirements into this table.
Our general lighting load was 7500 VA:
Dwelling units General Lighting 7,500 VA (see #74 above)
2 Small Appliance Circuits 3,000 VA 210.11 (C) (1)
1 Laundry Circuit 1,500VA 210.11 (C) (2)
Total VA 12,000 VA
First 3,000 VA at 100 % 3,000VA
12,000 - =3,000 VA=9,000VA @35 % 3,150 VA
Total Net Load 6,150 VA
Here's where you would add various other loads like A/C, Range, Dryer, Water Heater, etc. to the total net load.
No calculations for bathroom(s) or garage(s). All you need for a dwelling is permanent provisions for living, sleeping, cooking, and sanitation.
See Article 100 Definitions, Dwelling Unit.
Thank you,
TX+MASTER #4544

That's all well and good but this conversation is in Part II of 220, you are in Part III.
The bottom line is, unless there is a local amendment, the inspector in the OP is wrong.

 

[tortuga]

That's all well and good but this conversation is in Part II of 220, you are in Part III.
The bottom line is, unless there is a local amendment, the inspector in the OP is wrong.

the OP ghosted this thread and never gave us enough information as they often do on here.
If Electriman had replied and clarified, no local amendments just 2023 NEC and he used only one single 15A AFCI to cover 50 of the receptacles in a 1000 sqft area, and no other lighting circuit serves that area, would that be a violation?

 

[roger]

the OP ghosted this thread and never gave us enough information as they often do on here.
If Electriman had replied and clarified, no local amendments just 2023 NEC and he used only one single 15A AFCI to cover 50 of the receptacles in a 1000 sqft area, and no other lighting circuit serves that area, would that be a violation?

He would need at least two and each could have as many receptacles as the owner and installer wanted. The OP (even though he disappeared) did not indicate the number of required circuits was a problem so going by what was posted, that was not an issue

 

[TX+ MASTER#4544]

That's all well and good but this conversation is in Part II of 220, you are in Part III.
The bottom line is, unless there is a local amendment, the inspector in the OP is wrong

the OP ghosted this thread and never gave us enough information as they often do on here.
If Electriman had replied and clarified, no local amendments just 2023 NEC and he used only one single 15A AFCI to cover 50 of the receptacles in a 1000 sqft area, and no other lighting circuit serves that area, would that be a violation?

He would need at least two and each could have as many receptacles as the owner and installer wanted. The OP (even though he disappeared) did not indicate the number of required circuits was a problem so going by what was posted, that was not an issue

That's all well and good but this conversation is in Part II of 220, you are in Part III.
The bottom line is, unless there is a local amendment, the inspector in the OP is wrong.

RE: 89 TX MASTER+ #4544 Chapters 1 thru 4 applies generally to all installations as per 90.3. See Figure 90.3 Code Arrangement.
Chapters 5 thru 7 can modify requirements in chapters 1 thru 7 and other articles can be modified, too.
Article 220, Branch-Circuit, Feeder, and Service Load Calculations contains seven parts.

Part II. Branch Circuit Load Calculations. 220.10 General. Branch circuit loads shall be calculated in accordance with the following sections: (1) thru (5) which covers all: (1) occupancies, (2) additions to existing installations (3) for dwelling units (4) lighting loads for non-dwelling occupancies and (5) for hotel and motel occupancies. Notice that some of those are found in Part III and Part IV.

Part III. Feeder and Service Load Calculations.220.41 Dwelling Units, Minimum Unit Load. 220.40 Here's where we find requirement for a dwelling
unit load to be 3 volt-amperes per sq ft for both lighting and receptacles. And, T. 220.45 lighting Load Demand Factors that is used for applying demand factors (a reduction) for those loads.

Students and instructors of the Code understand that the Code is somewhat like a maze; you start here and you're referred to another article/section and so on and on that create a network of paths and passages. It's a living document despite it's survival of a century and a quarter- years old and still used in numerous other countries.

What is the OP?

Thanks, for reading
TX+MASTER#4544

 

[ptonsparky]

OP=Original Post
Supposedly the topic for the thread.

 

[TX+ MASTER#4544]

You cannot. Just more useless code language.

RE: 89 TX MASTER+ #4544 Chapters 1 thru 4 applies generally to all installations as per 90.3. See Figure 90.3 Code Arrangement.
Chapters 5 thru 7 can modify requirements in chapters 1 thru 7 and other articles can be modified, too.
Article 220, Branch-Circuit, Feeder, and Service Load Calculations contains seven parts.

Part II. Branch Circuit Load Calculations. 220.10 General. Branch circuit loads shall be calculated in accordance with the following sections: (1) thru (5) which covers all: (1) occupancies, (2) additions to existing installations (3) for dwelling units (4) lighting loads for non-dwelling occupancies and (5) for hotel and motel occupancies. Notice that some of those are found in Part III and Part IV.

Part III. Feeder and Service Load Calculations.220.41 Dwelling Units, Minimum Unit Load. 220.40 Here's where we find requirement for a dwelling
unit load to be 3 volt-amperes per sq ft for both lighting and receptacles. And, T. 220.45 lighting Load Demand Factors that is used for applying demand factors (a reduction) for those loads.

Students and instructors of the Code understand that the Code is somewhat like a maze; you start here and you're referred to another article/section and so on and on that create a network of paths and passages. It's a living document despite it's survival of a century and a quarter- years old and still used in numerous other countries.

What is the OP?

Thanks, for reading
TX+MASTER#4544

Thanks for the definition of OP.

 

[LarryFine]

There is a difference between the rules for load calcs and for actual installation. We have discussed it before.

 

[roger]

RE: 89 TX MASTER+ #4544 Chapters 1 thru 4 applies generally to all installations as per 90.3. See Figure 90.3 Code Arrangement.
Chapters 5 thru 7 can modify requirements in chapters 1 thru 7 and other articles can be modified, too.
Article 220, Branch-Circuit, Feeder, and Service Load Calculations contains seven parts.

Part II. Branch Circuit Load Calculations. 220.10 General. Branch circuit loads shall be calculated in accordance with the following sections: (1) thru (5) which covers all: (1) occupancies, (2) additions to existing installations (3) for dwelling units (4) lighting loads for non-dwelling occupancies and (5) for hotel and motel occupancies. Notice that some of those are found in Part III and Part IV.

Part III. Feeder and Service Load Calculations.220.41 Dwelling Units, Minimum Unit Load. 220.40 Here's where we find requirement for a dwelling
unit load to be 3 volt-amperes per sq ft for both lighting and receptacles. And, T. 220.45 lighting Load Demand Factors that is used for applying demand factors (a reduction) for those loads.

Students and instructors of the Code understand that the Code is somewhat like a maze; you start here and you're referred to another article/section and so on and on that create a network of paths and passages. It's a living document despite it's survival of a century and a quarter- years old and still used in numerous other countries.

What is the OP?

Thanks, for reading
TX+MASTER#4544

I don't know what your point is. You're reiterating what I posted in post #89. You need to concentrate on Part II, this discussion does not care about Feeder and Service Calculations. I'm glad to see you understand how the code is layed out but please try to stay on topic.

 

[roger]

Part III. Feeder and Service Load Calculations.220.41 Dwelling Units, Minimum Unit Load. 220.40 Here's where we find requirement for a dwelling
unit load to be 3 volt-amperes per sq ft for both lighting and receptacles. And, T. 220.45 lighting Load Demand Factors that is used for applying demand factors (a reduction) for those loads.

BTW, if you really want to talk about Part III of article 220 you are welcome to start your own thread.

 

[MyCleveland]

roger:
I tried this in post 30...can you explain this.

What is the significance of the added reference to "minimum load" that was added in 2020 ?

Are they not stating that the minimum number of outlets, based on spacing criteria etc. constitutes the minimum load based on residence sq footage ?

If you start adding additional receptacles, then you are forced to apply 2210.14(L) ?

220.14(L) does not exempt 220.14(J) from its application.

 

[retirede]

roger:
I tried this in post 30...can you explain this.

What is the significance of the added reference to "minimum load" that was added in 2020 ?

Are they not stating that the minimum number of outlets, based on spacing criteria etc. constitutes the minimum load based on residence sq footage ?

If you start adding additional receptacles, then you are forced to apply 2210.14(L) ?

220.14(L) does not exempt 220.14(J) from its application.

(L) specifically states that it applies only to outlets not covered in (A) thru (K). So (L) does not apply to dwelling units because they are covered in (J).

 

[MyCleveland]

(L) specifically states that it applies only to outlets not covered in (A) thru (K). So (L) does not apply to dwelling units because they are covered in (J).

If you go above the "minimum load", then those fall under "L".