Where's the "Outlet" under the 2020 NEC -- for outdoor hardwire EVSEs

[brycenesbitt]

Where's the "outlet" in each of these situations?

2020 NEC 210.8(F) Outdoor Outlets. All outdoor outlets for dwellings, other than those covered in 210.8 (A)(3), Exception to (3), that are supplied by single-phase branch circuits rated 150 volts to ground or less, 50 amperes or less, shall have ground-fault circuit-interrupter protection for personnel.

An "outlet" is the point where the house service connects to the equipment (could be a wire nut).
A "receptacle" is a socket where a plug can be placed.

In the case of the bath GFCI the outlet and receptacle are the same thing.
In the case of the HVAC the "outlet" seems likely to be the shutoff switch, right?
---
But for the EVSE without a shutoff switch or receptacle, would the "outlet" be the EVSE or the supply breaker? Why?
---
I am aware there's a lot of confusion on these points, and differing interpretations:

210.8(F) GFCI Protection

Nothing written by a manufacture ever eliminates a code requirement. The manufacturer can require additional protections that require more that what the NEC requires, but they cannot eliminate a protection required by the NEC. When a manufacture says do not connect to GFCI protection, all...

forums.mikeholt.com

 

[Ponchik]

The definition of outlet is in the book. That will clear things up.

 

[Tulsa Electrician]

If you don't understand the definition ask again.

 

[dm9289]

Where's the "outlet" in each of these situations?
View attachment 2568190


In the case of the bath GFCI the outlet and receptacle are the same thing.
In the case of the HVAC the "outlet" seems likely to be the shutoff switch, right?
---
But for the EVSE without a shutoff switch or receptacle, would the "outlet" be the EVSE or the supply breaker? Why?
---
I am aware there's a lot of confusion on these points, and differing interpretations:

210.8(F) GFCI Protection

Nothing written by a manufacture ever eliminates a code requirement. The manufacturer can require additional protections that require more that what the NEC requires, but they cannot eliminate a protection required by the NEC. When a manufacture says do not connect to GFCI protection, all...

forums.mikeholt.com

IMO EV with no separate disconnect, I would say the supply breaker cause that’s the point where power for the device is taken

 

[jim dungar]

IMO EV with no separate disconnect, I would say the supply breaker cause that’s the point where power for the device is taken

And I would say power is taken at the 'end' of the branch circuit wiring.

 

[kkyyllee]

how many would consider the terminals in this installation to be the outlet ?

https://interchargers.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/12/tesla-wall-connector-wiring-scheme-740x416.jpg.webp

 

[LarryFine]

Where's the "outlet" in each of these situations?
View attachment 2568190

Receptacle, disco, disco, and probably the EVSE, depending on what connects to it.

 

[LarryFine]

And I would say power is taken at the 'end' of the branch circuit wiring.

Agreed.

 

[LarryFine]

how many would consider the terminals in this installation to be the outlet ?

If the EMT is premises wiring, I would. Equipment J-boxes are often the demarcation point.

 

[wwhitney]

Receptacle, disco, disco, and probably the EVSE, depending on what connects to it.

Seems to me that unless the wiring from the HVAC to disco and/or from the EVSE to disco is a factory supplied whip, that wiring is still part of the branch circuit, so the outlet is within the wiring compartment of the equipment supplied.

Cheers, Wayne

 

[brycenesbitt]

Some above say "I would say the [outlet is the] supply breaker cause that’s the point where power for the device is taken" and some say it's the EVSE. This is not very clear.

Seems to me that unless the wiring from the HVAC to disco and/or from the EVSE to disco is a factory supplied whip, that wiring is still part of the branch circuit, so the outlet is within the wiring compartment of the equipment supplied.
Cheers, Wayne

Ok, so if the wire from the main panel to the EVSE is the branch circuit.
Then the terminals inside the EVSE are the "outlet" as defined by the EVSE, right?
--
Here's the inside of an EVSE showing hardwired input, the output cable, and RS-485 connections.
The device shuts output power if it detects a GFCI fault downstream (this model can't do
vehicle to grid discharging, so just one way power here):



So:
In that case is supplementary external GFCI required?
The 1772 plug is clearly a receptacle, and it's downstream of the EVSE GFCI.

So I don't have to have this discussion with my AHJ, how could I get more definitive clarity, than just this thread?

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https://support.wallbox.com/wp-content/uploads/ht_kb/2021/05/PulsarPlus_InstallationGuide_English.pdf

 

[jaggedben]

I have argued that for a permanently installed EVSE the outlet could be at the car.

But it certainly is not anywhere upstream of the terminals of the EVSE.

Some above say "I would say the [outlet is the] supply breaker cause that’s the point where power for the device is taken" and some say it's the EVSE. This is not very clear.

No, this part is very clear, it is definitely not at the breaker.

...
--
Here's the inside of an EVSE showing hardwired input, the output cable, and RS-485 connections.
The device shuts output power if it detects a GFCI fault downstream (this model can't do
vehicle to grid discharging, so just one way power here):



So:
In that case is supplementary external GFCI required?

The 1772 plug is clearly a receptacle, and it's downstream of the EVSE GFCI.

So I don't have to have this discussion with my AHJ, how could I get more definitive clarity, than just this thread?
...

I have argued that supplementary GFCI is not required, or at least might not be in some cases, but others disagree. One of the sticking points is whether the EVSE protection has the same trip point as the NEC assumes.

 

[jaggedben]

See for example this discussion.

EVSE

The code language says nothing of the sort. The language in 625.54 does not talk about hard wired equipment. It very simply says that if you install a receptacle to supply EV equipment that receptacle must have GFCI protection. Once again the code does not require GFCI protection for EV...

forums.mikeholt.com

But also ask yourself if you want to get that into-the-weeds with an AHJ.

 

[jim dungar]

One of the sticking points is whether the EVSE protection has the same trip point as the NEC assumes.

Except for a few specific items/areas, the NEC generally requires Listed GFCI protection for personnel. Very rarely does dedicated equipment ground fault protection meet the UL requirements for personnel.

 

[jaggedben]

Except for a few specific items/areas, the NEC generally requires Listed GFCI protection for personnel. Very rarely does dedicated equipment ground fault protection meet the UL requirements for personnel.

Right, but ultimately we need to know what protection the EVSE actually provides. And I frankly don't understand why EVSE protection couldn't meet the requirements for personnel.

 

[wwhitney]

Right, but ultimately we need to know what protection the EVSE actually provides. And I frankly don't understand why EVSE protection couldn't meet the requirements for personnel.

The EVSE data sheet should indicate the type of protection, but generally it is CCID20, which has a nominal 20ma trip level. I know the listing standard also discusses CCID5, which is in the range where it could meet the requirements for a Class A GFCI, but I don't know if it necessarily would.

Cheers, Wayne

 

[don_resqcapt19]

It is my opinion that the outlet for all hardwired equipment is the point where the electrician connects the branch circuit conductors to the equipment.

There are multiple PIs for the 2026 code based on the location of the outlet for hardwired equipment.

 

[jaggedben]

It is my opinion that the outlet for all hardwired equipment is the point where the electrician connects the branch circuit conductors to the equipment.

There are multiple PIs for the 2026 code based on the location of the outlet for hardwired equipment.

But it is widely acknowledged that a requirement for protection can be provided by the equipment, and that pinpointing the outlet location is therefore irrelevant. No one claims that a GFCI receptacle does not provide GFCI protection because the outlet is on the supply side of the GFCI device.

 

[Fred B]

NEC 2017
Outlet.
A point on the wiring system at which current is taken to supply utilization equipment. (CMP-1)

Utilization Equipment.
Equipment that utilizes electric energy for electronic, electromechanical, chemical, heating, lighting, or similar purposes. (CMP-1)

So the question is simply (or not so simply) where is or what is the "utilization equipment" in each scenario?

AFA EVSE the code has specific requirements in 625.

Electric Vehicle Inlet.
The device on the electric vehicle into which the electric vehicle connector is electrically coupled (conductive or inductive) for power transfer and information exchange. This device is part of the electric vehicle coupler. For the purposes of this Code, the electric vehicle inlet is considered to be part of the electric vehicle and not part of the electric vehicle supply equipment.

Electric Vehicle Supply Equipment.
The conductors, including the ungrounded, grounded, and equipment grounding conductors, and the electric vehicle connectors, attachment plugs, and all other fittings, devices, power outlets, or apparatus installed specifically for the purpose of transferring energy between the premises wiring and the electric vehicle.

So, is the "electric vehicle inlet", or the "electric vehicle supply equipment" the "utilization equipment"?

 

[jim dungar]

NEC 2017
Outlet.
A point on the wiring system at which current is taken to supply utilization equipment. (CMP-1)

Utilization Equipment.
Equipment that utilizes electric energy for electronic, electromechanical, chemical, heating, lighting, or similar purposes. (CMP-1)

So the question is simply (or not so simply) where is or what is the "utilization equipment" in each scenario?

AFA EVSE the code has specific requirements in 625.

Electric Vehicle Inlet.
The device on the electric vehicle into which the electric vehicle connector is electrically coupled (conductive or inductive) for power transfer and information exchange. This device is part of the electric vehicle coupler. For the purposes of this Code, the electric vehicle inlet is considered to be part of the electric vehicle and not part of the electric vehicle supply equipment.

Electric Vehicle Supply Equipment.
The conductors, including the ungrounded, grounded, and equipment grounding conductors, and the electric vehicle connectors, attachment plugs, and all other fittings, devices, power outlets, or apparatus installed specifically for the purpose of transferring energy between the premises wiring and the electric vehicle.

So, is the "electric vehicle inlet", or the "electric vehicle supply equipment" the "utilization equipment"?

You quoted the NEC definition that says the inlet plug is considered part of the vehicle, so it cannot also be part of the branch circuit nor the supply equipment.

The EVSE definition says it is all of the stuff between the premises wiring and the inlet. So, per the definitions you provided, the EVSE is not part of the branch circuit.