why?

[hurk27]

You are correct. My bad, they want an over current device installed. I will check with them though and verify. If they will accept a disconnect, by the 2008 NEC you still have run a GEC (structure to structure).

Well in my view, without a OCPD you don't no longer have a service disconnect as per 230, and the fact the NEC doesn't require a service disconnect at this pole, IMO you would just have a load disconnect that would allow the utility to unload the meter when they need to change it?

I don't see this as being any different from a meter disconnect ahead of the meter, these also don't have OCPD's and are used for the same purpose.

But this is just my opinion

 

[rwreuter]

Well in my view, without a OCPD you don't no longer have a service disconnect as per 230, and the fact the NEC doesn't require a service disconnect at this pole, IMO you would just have a load disconnect that would allow the utility to unload the meter when they need to change it?

I don't see this as being any different from a meter disconnect ahead of the meter, these also don't have OCPD's and are used for the same purpose.

But this is just my opinion

Isn't still called a Feeder though? Being a feeder going from a structure...

I will have to read up on 230.

 

[hurk27]

Did you go to the link I posted in post #66 ?

there is some good reading

 

[Power Tech]

OP: Makes sense to drive a ground rod (as poor as that is) to equal the potential from the main service to the remote panel location.

Prevent electrocution.

Every time a cod is made it is (probably) because somebody died.

 

[rwreuter]

Did you go to the link I posted in post #66 ?

there is some good reading

not yet, i will though.

 

[hurk27]

Isn't still called a Feeder though? Being a feeder going from a structure...

I will have to read up on 230.

nope:

100Feeder. All circuit conductors between the service equipment, the source of a separately derived system, or other power supply source and the final branch-circuit overcurrent device.

Service equipment has over current protection

 

[hurk27]

Makes sense to drive a ground rod (as poor as that is) to equal the potential from the main service to the remote panel location.

It wont do this.
I find ground rods wont do many of the things we were taught in the old school:roll:

there are many myths about ground rods, and that link I gave you will clear up most of them

 

[rwreuter]

nope:



Service equipment has over current protection

ok, say for sake of arguement it is not a feeder and i don't have to run a GEC.

what would be safer, with or without a disconnect....running a GEC with floating neutrals and isolated ground or not running one and having the neutrals and grounds bonded together?

 

[hurk27]

You know whats even stranger, with all the requirments of trailers with the insulated grounding, and 4-wire to the trailer and such, it is still allowed that the feeder from the main service to the disconnect that is just outside of a trailer, is only required to be a 3-wire feeder:roll: see 550.33(A) Exception

Go figure

 

[hardworkingstiff]

why?

Rather how, how did the Pats lose this game????? :-?

yea yea, i know, it's not on topic

 

[hurk27]

ok, say for sake of argument it is not a feeder and i don't have to run a GEC.

what would be safer, with or without a disconnect....running a GEC with floating neutrals and isolated ground or not running one and having the neutrals and grounds bonded together?

the option is yours, and I agree pushing the split of the grounding and neutrals closer to the transformer will always be a better choice, and if I had that choice for my house, I would probably take it, but I also like the idea, at least in the city where we have a common water pipe bonded to a service next door, where the loss of the neutral would not plunge my voltage into a imbalance and fry all my electronics. having the neutral split out at the pole removes this as your water grounds now connect to the grounding conductor not the neutral, and if you loose the neutral from the pole to the house you don't have no water ground backing up the neutral, but you can put a 120 volt N/C contactor with the coil between the grounding and neutral to open up the hots in case this ever happens

 

[ActionDave]

Well in my view, without a OCPD you don't no longer have a service disconnect as per 230, and the fact the NEC doesn't require a service disconnect at this pole, IMO you would just have a load disconnect that would allow the utility to unload the meter when they need to change it?

I don't see this as being any different from a meter disconnect ahead of the meter, these also don't have OCPD's and are used for the same purpose.

But this is just my opinion

This is the way it is handled in my area. Underground services have the meter out at the pole. There is a meter base with a 200A disconect that the service conductors tie into.

As far as the inspector is concerned that disconect does not exist. Three wires are run to the a main disco on the house from the meter base. '08 rules are satisfied and everybody is happy until we go inside and start arguing about which rooms require AFCI'S.

 

[rwreuter]

You know whats even stranger, with all the requirments of trailers with the insulated grounding, and 4-wire to the trailer and such, it is still allowed that the feeder from the main service to the disconnect that is just outside of a trailer, is only required to be a 3-wire feeder:roll: see 550.33(A) Exception

Go figure

yeah it is odd. i thought about running a 3 wire to a OCPD and mount it just outside the house next to the propane tank and A/C unit and then running the 4 conductor to the house. all of that just toget away from running 150' of 4 conductor and that cost. but that is just stupid, i would end up having 3 200 amp breaker inbetween my house and the meter. makes no sense.

i will just run the 4 conductor.

 

[rwreuter]

This is the way it is handled in my area. Underground services have the meter out at the pole. There is a meter base with a 200A disconect that the service conductors tie into.

As far as the inspector is concerned that disconect does not exist. Three wires are run to the a main disco on the house from the meter base. '08 rules are satisfied and everybody is happy until we go inside and start arguing about which rooms require AFCI'S.

not much arguing now, pretty much the entire house are suppose to be AFCI's. also, now you have to spend at least twice as much (almost three times) to purchase outlets.

they just should have a 200amp AFCI as the main disconnect.

 

[readydave8]

not much arguing now, pretty much the entire house are suppose to be afci's. Also, now you have to spend at least twice as much (almost three times) to purchase outlets.

They just should have a 200amp afci as the main disconnect.

nusiance tripping would become a nightmare

 

[rwreuter]

Update

Update

i just met with the co-op at the home and these guys told me something that i wasn't expecting AT ALL.

they will not allow me to pull a grounding electrode conductor from the remote meter and 200amp cb. oh i can pull it but i cannot hook it up to their panel on the pedestal, they won't let me modify their set up.

as you know to run the gec you have to isolate the neutrals (float it by removing the bonding screw) and add another bus bar for the gec. they said that is a no no and you can't do that.

i said what and they said that is the way it is, period.

 

[rwreuter]

i just met with the co-op at the home and these guys told me something that i wasn't expecting at all.

They will not allow me to pull a grounding electrode conductor from the remote meter and 200amp cb. Oh i can pull it but i cannot hook it up to their panel on the pedestal, they won't let me modify their set up.

As you know to run the gec you have to isolate the neutrals (float it by removing the bonding screw) and add another bus bar for the gec. They said that is a no no and you can't do that.

I said what and they said that is the way it is, period.

disregard this post!!

 

[220/221]

Just what does that 4th wire do? Does it create a back up to the back up (ie ground rods and water main)?

Here is my take.

The 4th wire IS your ground from the source.

The ground rods are for lightning protection. The water should just be a bond, not a ground.

It a safer (more safe?) system.

 

[hurk27]

i just met with the co-op at the home and these guys told me something that i wasn't expecting AT ALL.

they will not allow me to pull a grounding electrode conductor from the remote meter and 200amp cb. oh i can pull it but i cannot hook it up to their panel on the pedestal, they won't let me modify their set up.

as you know to run the gec you have to isolate the neutrals (float it by removing the bonding screw) and add another bus bar for the gec. they said that is a no no and you can't do that.

i said what and they said that is the way it is, period.

disregard this post!!

I have had my share of problems with Co-OP's here, one called REMC, who tried to require us to parallel the neutral between the meter and the main service panel, they wanted a #4 grounding conductor paralleled with the 2/0 neutral, it was one of there engineers that even after showing him where it's not allowed in the NEC, I showed him the red tags from the inspectors, when one of our guys did it, just to get them to hook up., I had to call our state AHJ, and he had to get the state utility commission involved to get them to correct this requirement, because it was getting us red tagged.

CO-OP's can be a pain. there also the only one around here who tells us where to put the meter, even if it is right on the front of the house where it is an eye sore.

 

[rwreuter]

these guys at this co-op are actually nice and really seemed to want to work with me. i understand their point, they have rules to follow, they can't just change established procedures.

once i become a member of the co-op i will be able to go to their meetings and suggest (with data) that they need to first get out of the meter business. that will keep the eye sores from being placed in peoples yards.

good grief, just think about it, in a housing development being forced to place a meter/ocpd and transformer withing 25' of a hard surface is just nuts. it would be the ugliest thing in the world to drive by houses in a development and see all these meters in peoples front yards or just off of their drive ways. Especially if the land sizes were .50 of an acre or less, 1 acre would even be hard to hide off of a road.