Inspectors :roll:

[lakee911]

You don't have to bring all of the other wiring of a house up to current code when you're doing a service change, why would you have to bring it up to current code simply because you were moving an outlet over? Other than putting in a GFCI receptacle.

When do you have to? If one was changing out a main panel would he have to make sure the rest of the house (e.g. bathroom 20A) was up to code?

Thx
Jason

 

[mcclary's electrical]

When do you have to? If one was changing out a main panel would he have to make sure the rest of the house (e.g. bathroom 20A) was up to code?

Thx
Jason

A service change can be done without any branch circuit wiring. IOW, you can change a 200 amp load center tomorrow, and not install AFCI's, if the branch circuit wiring will not accept it.

 

[cpal]

You're allowed to change devices witout a permit. .

That is not necessarily so in all jurisdictions.

 

[mikeames]

You don't do much wall-fishing, I take it?

Whats that got to do with it?

Professionally no but personally yes, and I have gotten very good at it.

 

[mikeames]

I am not saying this is right....... but you really cant blame the the ole DIY or homeowner to either do work themselves or hire a trunk slammer when all they want is an aditional outlet on a 15 amps circuit in a remodeled bathroom.

The professional electricial will do the job correctly and possibly have to run a new feed to the panel which may involve opening walls. Thsi job may cost anything starting from $500 and up. It also may entail other costs to repair and walls.

The hack or trunk slammer will add the outlet to the existing 15 amp recep, and charge $60.

In any situation the customer is no more safe, assuming the additional outlet was wired properly.


There should be no question as to why some building trades get undercut by hacks. This is a perfect example. Its not the EC's fault but sometimes these "codes" dont have ANY LOGIC in them.

 

[growler]

The hack or trunk slammer will add the outlet to the existing 15 amp recep, and charge $60.

In any situation the customer is no more safe, assuming the additional outlet was wired properly.

What you are saying is that there was no reason for the 20 Amp circuit requirement in the first place. In you opinion a 15 is as good as a 20.

If you take a few fire prevention classes you will see that many code requirements are to keep a homeowner from doing one thing, that is useing extension cords. If the power is available at the point where needed people don't use extension cords but if it's not then the homeowner will get an extension cord to supply needed power.

Now if there is only a 15 Amp circuit and they have an 1875 watt hair dryer and a curling iron and who know what else and the circuit breaker trips there will soon be an extension cord from the bedroom to supply some of these items. This is not only a fire hazard but a shock hazard as well because the receptacles in the bedroom are not required to be GFCI protected.

Now the trunk slammer can take his $60 and hire himself the best lawyer he can get for that amount because he is going to need it. $60 won't even cover the permit and the fuel. He working without a license on an unpermitted job so he doesn't have a leg to stand on. Saving the customer money won't get him anywhere in court.

 

[iwire]

There should be no question as to why some building trades get undercut by hacks. This is a perfect example. Its not the EC's fault but sometimes these "codes" dont have ANY LOGIC in them.

One persons logic is not anothers.

The code has to do what it has to do, the NFPA is not concerned with the enforcment angle.

As far preventing what a hack and a homeowner may do ....


Make something idiot proof and someone will make a better idiot. :grin:

 

[mikeames]

No please dont twist my words. I am not advocating a 15 amps circuit is a good idea. I am not contesting a 15 amp circuit will cause problems. I am one of the good guys.

I am looking at this from a real world perspective. I am not interested in discussing every possible aspect and invoking a 30 page thread on the difference between the AHJ and the inspector.

I agree with 1875 watt hair dryers however if it is not safe to use a 15amp circuit with a 1875 watt load then we have bigger fish to fry. The breaker will trip no question but thats the point. ITS NOT PERFECT I KNOW, thats not my point. My point is what will actually happen, and why there is not an amendment for such a situation. It may be safer since its more likely a true EC will do the job.

 

[prh1700]

Ok, I am definitely not in most of you guys league when it comes to code knowledge. And I thank you for sharing your knowledge. My question is this: If you have to change the existing circuit, then the inspector goes to the panel and says "No AFCI's. Install the necessary wiring for/to include the new breakers". Then when he checks the breakers function, he notices no smoke detectors in the bedrooms. Now you have to do that. Couldn't this just bury the homeowner if there wasn't a "grandfather" clause?

 

[growler]

Its not the EC's fault but sometimes these "codes" dont have ANY LOGIC in them.

If people understand what the code is and how to use it then it's very logical ( in most cases). The code is just a set of minimum standards used for new construction. It's not a design manual.

The code makes allowances for all sorts of things to include special permission granted from the AHJ.

They could probably have gotten special permission from the AHJ with just a phone call if adding that 20 Amp circuit was going to be a great financial burden on the homeowner. If they really were going to have to tear half the house apart. But if it's only a matter of fishing the cable to the basement and over to the panel that's a horse of a different color.

The difference between getting special permisssion granted by the AHJ and the inspector just turning a blind eye is that one method is legal and the other is not. One method protects the contractor. To operate any business it's important to know how to navigate through the laws that govern said business.

When it was first noticed that this was a 15 Amp circuit that was the time to call and ask for permission to leave it as is. That way if the head electrical inspector needs to run it by the building code official there is plenty of time. If permission is granted then the first inspector would not have red taged the job and the problem would have been solved.

That's why we carry these little cell phones around, it's to communicate. Ten minutes on the phone is not that big of a deal.

 

[LarryFine]

I agree with 1875 watt hair dryers however if it is not safe to use a 15amp circuit with a 1875 watt load then we have bigger fish to fry. The breaker will trip no question but thats the point.

It may trip, and it may not for hours, but that 15.625a will find and warm up the weakest link in the circuit quite a bit before it does.

It could well be that a breaker that doesn't trip is a bigger concern than one that does. Where was most of the voltage dropped?

 

[Pierre C Belarge]

The gist of the rehab code is: No worse than it was. No less safe.

A 15A bathroom ckt, while an inconvenience if tripped, will not cause the house to spontaneously combust, killing everyone in the tri-county area.

You must have some mighty powerful electricity in your area.


NYS also has a code similar to NJ, it is called the existing building code - for both residential and other than residential.

The codes we recently added to NYS. The reason is to perserve the older parts of town. What has been noticed is that people were shying away from renovating older buildings (of any kind), due to the excessive cost to bring them up to coded. With the relaxed codes, it is now possible to have work done in older parts of town.

 

[iwire]

I am looking at this from a real world perspective.

Mike I was not trying to twist your words, what I was trying to point out is even if the NEC was perfect homeowners and hacks would still do bad work.

Do you have a real world idea of how the NEC could address the issue you are bringing up?

In general if you give people an inch they will take a mile so it's a tough thing to try to write a code section that is 'adjustable'.

 

[220/221]

You were wrong to make this a change order, you should have ate it, because you missed it to start with.

I didn't miss it, I used my interpetation. Our proposals specifically exclude any code upgrade that may be required by an inspector.

One other item that always comes up is smokies. At what point do you have to install to protect the whole house? Sometimes it's required on remodel, sometimes it's not. We call attention to it upfront, price it separately and let the HO make the initial call. Generally, when you are adding a bedroom, they make us add smokies everywhere else if it is not already done.

What you are saying is that there was no reason for the 20 Amp circuit requirement in the first place. In you opinion a 15 is as good as a 20.

No. He was saying that the installation is just as safe, not just as good. The breaker wil trip on overload and eventually they will get a smaller hair dryer or call an electrician to add a circuit.

It seems like a somewhat split decision here with the majority saying that a new circuit was necessary. In the future I will still use my best judgement and cover myself financially with disclaimers on required code upgrades.

 

[mikeames]

Mike I was not trying to twist your words, what I was trying to point out is even if the NEC was perfect homeowners and hacks would still do bad work.

Do you have a real world idea of how the NEC could address the issue you are bringing up?

In general if you give people an inch they will take a mile so it's a tough thing to try to write a code section that is 'adjustable'.

Sorry Bob I was refering to growlers post. I know its a tough call with the inch/mile, however in my opinion, and its only that, my opinion, I think the code could allow for existing circuits to be amended without having to bring the circuit into total compliance. All this assumes it is safe with proper ampacity and conductor sizing.

For exmaple:

-This may only apply to circuits with 90c conductors. (no knob and tube alterations)
-This exception may only apply in single family residences (no multi dwelling / comercial)
-This exception may limit the alteration to the addition of one device / outlet

 

[mikeames]

It may trip, and it may not for hours, but that 15.625a will find and warm up the weakest link in the circuit quite a bit before it does.

Then the NEC should limit the OCP for #14 to 10amps if the 15.625A is viewed as a problem. As I see it 15.625 amps on #14 may warm the conductor / splices but will not/ should not cause a hazard if it was done correctly.

does. Where was most of the voltage dropped?

In the hair dryer.

 

[Jim W in Tampa]

You're allowed to change devices witout a permit. You cannot, however, legally add an outlet without one.

NEC does not care about permits or inspections. That is a local issue
It does say that NEW needs to comply to the year you are on. We can repair what is grandfathered in. Repair is not relocating or adding.
Now if your under rehab then basically leave your copy of NEC at home as they care more about money than safety.

 

[Sierrasparky]

Ya know I really don't get all the fuss here. Unless you have some Re-hab code that allows such extensions you cannot add the outlet without doing so to code.

I guess that the same would apply here. In a old house I looked at had a Bath fan heat/light on the same circuit at the 15 amp bath recept and the lighting. I suppose if you some of you folks changed out the bath fan heat light you would not have to run a new proper circuit because it's grandfatherd?

 

[Jim W in Tampa]

Ya know I really don't get all the fuss here. Unless you have some Re-hab code that allows such extensions you cannot add the outlet without doing so to code.

I guess that the same would apply here. In a old house I looked at had a Bath fan heat/light on the same circuit at the 15 amp bath recept and the lighting. I suppose if you some of you folks changed out the bath fan heat light you would not have to run a new proper circuit because it's grandfatherd?

If it was equal to the old one then i say it is legal but not smart. Unless i know the owners habbits i have no reason to say it wont work. What is it's rating ? if under 15 amps what code would you site as violation ?

 

[LarryFine]

Where was most of the voltage dropped?

In the hair dryer.

That's where it's supposed to be dropped, but 'tain't always so.