Bonding the copper plumbing in a dwelling.?

[LarryFine]

Larry

"Can we say the same about metallic water pipe itself? "

We are not concerned with any properties or listings of the metal water piping. We just have to bond to it with approved methods.

So, why are we concerned with the properties or listing of mixing valves? What differentiates pipe from valves?

 

[Johnmcca]

Moveable parts

 

[jxofaltrds]

What if this or a similar product was installed? It is a Kohler company.

http://www.mirashowers.com/onlinecatalog/pdf/1062246_w2_b.pdf

"It is recommended that a non-restrictive (free flowing) isolating valve is fitted in the cold water supply pipe to allow the complete maintenance of the appliance. Do not use a valve with a loose washer plate (jumper) as this can lead to a build up of static pressures."


"Supplementary bonding: Within the bathroom or shower room, all accessible conductive parts of electrical equipment and extraneous conductive parts (metal parts) that are likely to introduce earth potential, must be electrically bonded to earth using a minimum cable size of 4.0 mm2 if the cable is not mechanically protected, (2.5 mm2 if mechanically protected)."

 

[Johnmcca]

I think they are refering to electrical equipment and boxes. If they are refering to any and all metalic parts in the bath then you should also insist that the DWV piping also be bonded.

In my house it is all copper.

 

[jxofaltrds]

I think they are refering to electrical equipment and boxes. If they are refering to any and all metalic parts in the bath then you should also insist that the DWV piping also be bonded.

In my house it is all copper.

John

I have thought of that but would only enforce it if everyone else did. Like I said I doubt if it could become energized.

 

[Johnmcca]

But it is a metallic piping system is it not? And about a likely to be energized as the hot water lines.

Why with a jacuzzi it could really be a traumatic experience, no?

 

[jim dungar]

What if this or a similar product was installed? It is a Kohler company.

http://www.mirashowers.com/onlinecatalog/pdf/1062246_w2_b.pdf

"It is recommended that a non-restrictive (free flowing) isolating valve is fitted in the cold water supply pipe to allow the complete maintenance of the appliance. Do not use a valve with a loose washer plate (jumper) as this can lead to a build up of static pressures."


"Supplementary bonding: Within the bathroom or shower room, all accessible conductive parts of electrical equipment and extraneous conductive parts (metal parts) that are likely to introduce earth potential, must be electrically bonded to earth using a minimum cable size of 4.0 mm2 if the cable is not mechanically protected, (2.5 mm2 if mechanically protected)."

This device is an 'on demand' electric water heater, by code it must be bonded. This has nothing to do with standard mixing valves.

 

[iwire]

Mike just so we are all clear here.

This is a typical shower valve and you say it has to be approved for bonding.

This is a typical gate valve you say this does not have to be approved for bonding.

Here is another kind of shower valve that by you would have to be approved for bonding.

Here is a typical ball valve used in a cold water line does it need approval or not?

How about this washing machine valve?

Does it need aproaval for bonding?

 

[jwelectric]

Question to anyone.

Does this include me?

If you did a service upgrade and only the cold water line was bonded would you jumper to the hot water lines?

No! If there was no bond to the cold water I wouldn?t install one either.

Would you say it was grandfathered?

No I would say it is simply not required.

Would you assume a bond via a hidden shower valve?

I wouldn?t care if there was a hidden shower valve or not.

5-236 Log #2432 NEC-P05 Final Action: Reject
(250.104(A)(1))
____________________________________________________________
Submitter: Robert P. McGann, City of Cambridge
Recommendation: Revise text to read as follows:
Metal water piping system(s) that is likely to be energized , installed in or attached to a building or structure shall be bonded.
Substantiation: With much expanded use of plastic water piping system(s) isolating section of metal piping systems. This type of installation leaves contractors and inspectors what is required to be bonded.
Panel Meeting Action: Reject
Panel Statement: The requirements of 250.104(A) apply to complete metallic water piping systems. Where there is no complete metallic water piping system, then the requirements of 250.104(B) would apply for those portions of isolated metal water piping system likely to become energized.
Number Eligible to Vote: 15
Ballot Results: Affirmative: 15

I contend that if I take a cheap multi-tester and check for continuity from one end of a METAL pipe to the other end of a METAL pipe and there is no reading then the METAL pipe is not METAL from one end to the other.

If I use a cheap multi-tester from the point of attachment of a bonding jumper to another point on the metal water system and have no reading then by the words of the code making panel I would not have a complete metal pipe system and the bonding would fall back to 250.104(B) no matter what kind of mixing valves were installed.

The same water flows in both the hot and cold water pipes meaning they are one and the same system and there is absolutely no need to bond the two of them together.

 

[jxofaltrds]

Bob

I AGREE that all you examples would work. But I do not look at those.

Only at the approved bonding methods.

Again these are NOT part of the metal water piping. Not part of the piping system.

This is where we disagree.

And I do agree that they will will bond.

But my opinion and yours are not in the code.

Bob

You are only looking at it from the electrical end. Look at it from the practical view. Just for a moment.

All of us only want to install or inspect per code.

Just try to look at it differently.

 

[hurk27]

It is possible that there is only one shower valve in a home. What if it is removed and/or cpvc is used for the repair?

I am just required to bond the metal water piping. What the plumber does is out of my control.

Again if a plumber installs anything on the waterlines it is his responsiblity to ensure that the bonding has not been broken. Not ours.

you know your almost arguing with yourself

 

[electricmanscott]

This is beyond bizarre. No doubt the oddest set of arguments on a topic I've read on this site.

 

[peter d]

Does this shower valve need to be bonded?

The incoming lines are PEX.

 

[LarryFine]

Does this shower valve need to be bonded?

The incoming lines are PEX.

Negatory, morning glory.

 

[M. D.]

:grin: yup , What you have there is local metal piping system being fed from a non metal system ,. Heck,.. I would not even call that black stuff piping ,.. looks more like a tube to me,.,.. so really you have one metal piping system shown there so ,..yup 250.104(a) :grin:

Now hold on there ,... whats that "T" doing there,.. bond that too.


The above was an attempt at humor ,. no animals were hurt while I typed ,.. no offense was ment and I hope none taken ,.. If you were offended in any way take tomorrow off and relax you are wound way to tight

 

[M. D.]

To answer Mike P's question I have never bonded the in and out of a water heater,.. nor have I bonded a copper metallic hot water baseboard heating system under xxx.104(a) nor waste pipe . and what about the roof drains that many buildings have ?? thats a water pipe .... Bob do you commercial folks bond those per xxx104.(A)

 

[jxofaltrds]

Does this shower valve need to be bonded?

The incoming lines are PEX.

Peter

That is not a complete system. What an example.

Make fun when you can not rebut that facts.

Other than my definiton of a plumbing system(s) I have seen no other definitions. With codes to back up my statements.

So what is a plumbing system? Any suggestions? Since the NEC does not define it how do you determine what it is?

 

[jxofaltrds]

To answer Mike P's question I have never bonded the in and out of a water heater,.. nor have I bonded a copper metallic hot water baseboard heating system under xxx.104(a) nor waste pipe . and what about the roof drains that many buildings have ?? thats a water pipe .... Bob do you commercial folks bond those per xxx104.(A)

I am not talking about bonding the tank, the metal water piping. The hot water baseboard metal piping should be bonded.

Why is it so hard to understand that these are seperate systems?

 

[jxofaltrds]

Peter and others

Since you are confused about Pex you should read this:

http://www.plasticpipesgroup.com/pdfs/earthbonding.pdf

From: by Paul Cook of the Institute of Electrical Engineers

Tell me what you think of Table A

"Hot water pipes, central
heating pipes, earth
terminals of class I
equipment and accessible
exposed-conductive parts
of the building structure"

 

[M. D.]

I am not talking about bonding the tank, the metal water piping. The hot water baseboard metal piping should be bonded.

I was taking about the pipes mike ,.. the baseboard is bonded by the circuit likely to energize it . why not the waste water pipe ??