14 tied to 12 on 20 amp breaker

[jxofaltrds]

I know you're quoting, but for the sake of all reading this discussion, the entirety of that quote is....

​

So is a branch-circuit tap conductor a branch-circuit conductor?

All wires on the load side of a pigtail (wirenut) are taps. So I could run 12AWG to my first 'outlet' in my kitchen then supply the frig. with 14AWG?

I know that it is safe but code compliant?

Only if your tap conductor qualifies through 240.21 by way of 240.4(E)(3). But in my books is a misnomer. Once you put ocpd on the load end of the tap conductor, the original branch circuit becomes a feeder circuit

However, qualifying through 240.4(E)(1) doesn't send you to 240.21, thus load-end ocpd appears to not be required, by my interpretation roll: for all you naysayers).

Only 240.4(E)(3) applies in the OP.

 

[Smart $]

A service conductor? Maybe :-?


230.82 Equipment Connected to the Supply Side of Service Disconnect.
Only the following equipment shall be permitted to be connected to the supply side of the service disconnecting means:
(5) Taps used only to supply load management devices, circuits for standby power systems, fire pump equipment, and fire and sprinkler alarms, if provided with service equipment and installed in accordance with requirements for service-entrance conductors.

What was that about once a tap conductor it's a tap conductor. And here you are questioning it about being a service conductor. Hmmm... there's a word for that

 

[Smart $]

All wires on the load side of a pigtail (wirenut) are taps. So I could run 12AWG to my first 'outlet' in my kitchen then supply the frig. with 14AWG?

I know that it is safe but code compliant?



Only 240.4(E)(3) applies in the OP.

Well not all wires on the load-side of a wirenut. The load-side conductors would have to have an ampacity for which the ocpd rating exceeds that which would "normally" be used per 240.4.

I'm not about to say "it is" Code compliant until others are on board... But I have been and will continue to say the current wording [literally] permits it. Compliant or not, I know such an installation would be safe.

I don't see only 240.4(E)(3) applying to the OP. You're going to have to show me soemthing that says specifically only the exceptions noted earlier apply and not the general provision. The only use of the word "tap" in the exceptions isn't enough.

 

[Smart $]

I have to ask, what is a 'service tap' to the NEC?

A service tap (to me :roll is a service conductor, distinguished but undefined from an otherwise "regular" service conductor. The NEC does not define a service tap, but it says we can tap a service conductor in 230.33, 230.46, and 230.82.

If one taps a service conductor and at the load end is a service disconnecting means, is the tapping conductor a service conductor?

 

[jwelectric]

You're going to have to show me soemthing that says specifically only the exceptions noted earlier apply and not the general provision. The only use of the word "tap" in the exceptions isn't enough.

Well here is the two sections in question and I ask you to show me where in the main body of the text a tap is mentioned.
It is clear that the taps are covered in detail in the exceptions but not one word is mentioned in the mandatory rule only in the permissive part of the rule or the exception.

(3) Household Ranges and Cooking Appliances. Branch-circuit conductors supplying household ranges, wall-mounted ovens, counter-mounted cooking units, and other household cooking appliances shall have an ampacity not less than the rating of the branch circuit and not less than the maximum load to be served. For ranges of 8? kW or more rating, the minimum branch-circuit rating shall be 40 amperes.

Exception No. 1: Conductors tapped from a 50-ampere branch circuit supplying electric ranges, wall-mounted electric ovens, and counter-mounted electric cooking units shall have an ampacity of not less than 20 amperes and shall be sufficient for the load to be served. These tap conductors include any conductors that are a part of the leads supplied with the appliance that are smaller than the branch-circuit conductors. The taps shall not be longer than necessary for servicing the appliance.

Exception No. 2: The neutral conductor of a 3-wire branch circuit supplying a household electric range, a wall-mounted oven, or a counter-mounted cooking unit shall be permitted to be smaller than the ungrounded conductors where the maximum demand of a range of 8?-kW or more rating has been calculated according to Column C of Table 220.55, but such conductor shall have an ampacity of not less than 70 percent of the branch-circuit rating and shall not be smaller than 10 AWG.

(4) Other Loads. Branch-circuit conductors that supply loads other than those specified in 210.2 and other than cooking appliances as covered in 210.19(A)(3) shall have an ampacity sufficient for the loads served and shall not be smaller than 14 AWG.

Exception No. 1: Tap conductors shall have an ampacity sufficient for the load served. In addition, they shall have an ampacity of not less than 15 for circuits rated less than 40 amperes and not less than 20 for circuits rated at 40 or 50 amperes and only where these tap conductors supply any of the following loads:
(a) Individual lampholders or luminaires with taps extending not longer than 450 mm (18 in.) beyond any portion of the lampholder or luminaire.
(b) A luminaire having tap conductors as provided in 410.117.
(c) Individual outlets, other than receptacle outlets, with taps not over 450 mm (18 in.) long.
(d) Infrared lamp industrial heating appliances.
(e) Nonheating leads of deicing and snow-melting cables and mats.
Exception No. 2: Fixture wires and flexible cords shall be permitted to be smaller than 14 AWG as permitted by 240.5.

 

[jwelectric]

What was that about once a tap conductor it's a tap conductor. And here you are questioning it about being a service conductor. Hmmm... there's a word for that

Yea I agree but can?t you see that according to the definition of a tap conductor there could technically be no such thing as a service tap as the service conductors do not have overcurrent protection.
But of course we do call those conductors coming from large service conductors to a meter current taps don?t we. Most of the time they are a lot smaller than the SE conductors and are unprotected are they not?


In your debate you keep going back to 240.4(E)(1)

(E) Tap Conductors. Tap conductors shall be permitted to be protected against overcurrent in accordance with the following:

(1) 210.19(A)(3) and (A)(4), Household Ranges and Cooking Appliances and Other Loads

which brings us to the definition of a tap conductor found in 240.2;

Tap Conductors. As used in this article, a tap conductor is defined as a conductor, other than a service conductor, that has overcurrent protection ahead of its point of supply that exceeds the value permitted for similar conductors that are protected as described elsewhere in 240.4.

Show me where it states in either 210.19(A)(3) or (4) that a smaller conductor to be connected to the branch circuit, please. Bet you have to enter the exception to find this I'm done

 

[Smart $]

Well here is the two sections in question and I ask you to show me where in the main body of the text a tap is mentioned.
It is clear that the taps are covered in detail in the exceptions but not one word is mentioned in the mandatory rule only in the permissive part of the rule or the exception.

(3) Household Ranges and Cooking Appliances. Branch-circuit conductors supplying household ranges, wall-mounted ovens, counter-mounted cooking units, and other household cooking appliances shall have an ampacity not less than the rating of the branch circuit and not less than the maximum load to be served. For ranges of 8? kW or more rating, the minimum branch-circuit rating shall be 40 amperes.

Exception No. 1: Conductors tapped from a 50-ampere branch circuit supplying electric ranges, wall-mounted electric ovens, and counter-mounted electric cooking units shall have an ampacity of not less than 20 amperes and shall be sufficient for the load to be served. These tap conductors include any conductors that are a part of the leads supplied with the appliance that are smaller than the branch-circuit conductors. The taps shall not be longer than necessary for servicing the appliance.

Exception No. 2: The neutral conductor of a 3-wire branch circuit supplying a household electric range, a wall-mounted oven, or a counter-mounted cooking unit shall be permitted to be smaller than the ungrounded conductors where the maximum demand of a range of 8?-kW or more rating has been calculated according to Column C of Table 220.55, but such conductor shall have an ampacity of not less than 70 percent of the branch-circuit rating and shall not be smaller than 10 AWG.

First, 210.19(A)(3) was not part of this discussion initially, because you cannot have a 20A ocpd on a Household Ranges and Cooking Appliances circuit. It just got thrown in since it is included in 240.4(E)(1).

However, please note that through Exception No. 1, you can have a #14 (i.e. meets minimum ampacity of 20A where sufficient to serve let's say a 15A cord-and-plug-connected load) on a 50A ocpd?but not for any other ocpd rating, higher or lower?and the #14 is not limited in length other than it being no longer than necessary to service the load.

And here we are, arguing whether we can put a #14 on a branch circuit for other loads having a 20A ocpd.

(4) Other Loads. Branch-circuit conductors that supply loads other than those specified in 210.2 and other than cooking appliances as covered in 210.19(A)(3) shall have an ampacity sufficient for the loads served and shall not be smaller than 14 AWG.

Exception No. 1: Tap conductors shall have an ampacity sufficient for the load served. In addition, they shall have an ampacity of not less than 15 for circuits rated less than 40 amperes and not less than 20 for circuits rated at 40 or 50 amperes and only where these tap conductors supply any of the following loads:
(a) Individual lampholders or luminaires with taps extending not longer than 450 mm (18 in.) beyond any portion of the lampholder or luminaire.
(b) A luminaire having tap conductors as provided in 410.117.
(c) Individual outlets, other than receptacle outlets, with taps not over 450 mm (18 in.) long.
(d) Infrared lamp industrial heating appliances.
(e) Nonheating leads of deicing and snow-melting cables and mats.
Exception No. 2: Fixture wires and flexible cords shall be permitted to be smaller than 14 AWG as permitted by 240.5.

Unless you concede that a branch-circuit tap conductor is a branch-circuit conductor, discussing effects of applying 210.19(A)(4) properly is pointless.

 

[Smart $]

Yea I agree but can’t you see that according to the definition of a tap conductor there could technically be no such thing as a service tap as the service conductors do not have overcurrent protection.

But of course we do call those conductors coming from large service conductors to a meter current taps don’t we. Most of the time they are a lot smaller than the SE conductors and are unprotected are they not?

But if we go by your definition of service taps, we'd be limited to only those mentioned in 230.82. What about a service with multiple disconnecting means, and one large service conductor, with reduced-in-size conductors for each disconnecting means. Are those not service tap conductors? And at the same time are they not also service conductors? Also note we are not bound by the 240.2 definition here.

In your debate you keep going back to 240.4(E)(1)

which brings us to the definition of a tap conductor found in 240.2;

And when we go to Article 210, we are not technically bound by the 240.2 definition because we are no longer in Article 240.

Show me where it states in either 210.19(A)(3) or (4) that a smaller conductor to be connected to the branch circuit, please. Bet you have to enter the exception to find this I'm done

210.19 has only to do with sizing and ampacity of branch-circuit conductors... and essentially says the conductor must have an ampacity sufficient for the load to be served...

If I run a #10 300' and connect a 3' #14 at the end, as long as both are sufficient for the load to be served, 210.19 has been satisfied for the most part. 210.19(A)(2 and 3) have ocpd/BC-rating to conductor ampacity related requirements. Since I already dfiscussed (3) in a recent post, take 210.19(A)(2) for example, if you have a multioutlet branch circuit with a 20A rating, does a #14 copper conductor meet its requirement? Does it have to be called a tap conductor? Remember, we are not in Article 240...

 

[jwelectric]

First, 210.19(A)(3) was not part of this discussion initially, because you cannot have a 20A ocpd on a Household Ranges and Cooking Appliances circuit. It just got thrown in since it is included in 240.4(E)(1).

However, please note that through Exception No. 1, you can have a #14 (i.e. meets minimum ampacity of 20A where sufficient to serve let's say a 15A cord-and-plug-connected load) on a 50A ocpd?but not for any other ocpd rating, higher or lower?and the #14 is not limited in length other than it being no longer than necessary to service the load.

And here we are, arguing whether we can put a #14 on a branch circuit for other loads having a 20A ocpd.

Well we are almost in agreement here but there are a couple of things that was left out.
First this tap to a 50 amp overcurrent device can take place in only one circumstance.
Conductors tapped from a 50-ampere branch circuit supplying electric ranges, wall-mounted electric ovens, and counter-mounted electric cooking units
You are making it sound like any 50 amp circuit can be tapped by #14 which brings us back to the second mistake.
Type NM cable and this is what we are talking about is residential wiring methods, is only good for 15 amps using size #14 so this tap to the 50 amp range circuit with NM cable would require a #12 conductor.
Then if that isn?t enough you are trying to use this exception for a cord and plug connect load. Just where did you pull that out of?

Unless you concede that a branch-circuit tap conductor is a branch-circuit conductor, discussing effects of applying 210.19(A)(4) properly is pointless.

A tap conductor can not be a branch circuit conductor by the simple definition found in 240.2. It must be a tap conductor. Using a simple though process tells us that if it was a branch circuit conductor there would be no need for the term ?tap conductor? now would there? If we are tapping a branch circuit conductor with another branch circuit conductor why would there be any mention of tap in the exception. The conductors outlined in the exceptions found in 210.19(A)(3)&(4) are described in the text as ?TAP? conductors and not branch circuit conductors.

 

[iwire]

A service tap (to me :roll is a service conductor, distinguished but undefined from an otherwise "regular" service conductor. The NEC does not define a service tap, but it says we can tap a service conductor in 230.33, 230.46, and 230.82.

If one taps a service conductor and at the load end is a service disconnecting means, is the tapping conductor a service conductor?

To 'me' there is no such thing as a service tap, only service conductors.

 

[david luchini]

A tap conductor can not be a branch circuit conductor by the simple definition found in 240.2. It must be a tap conductor. Using a simple though process tells us that if it was a branch circuit conductor there would be no need for the term ?tap conductor? now would there? If we are tapping a branch circuit conductor with another branch circuit conductor why would there be any mention of tap in the exception. The conductors outlined in the exceptions found in 210.19(A)(3)&(4) are described in the text as ?TAP? conductors and not branch circuit conductors.

But by the simple definition of Branch Circuit in Article 100, "circuit conductors between the final overcurrent device protecting the circuit and the outlet(s)," a branch circuit tap conductor MUST be a branch circuit conductor. And a feeder tap conductor must be a feeder conductor.

A "branch circuit tap conductor" is a "branch circuit conductor" which has "overcurrent protection ahead of its point of supply that exceeds the value permitted for similar conductors that are protected as described elsewhere in 240.4."

 

[jwelectric]

210.19 has only to do with sizing and ampacity of branch-circuit conductors... and essentially says the conductor must have an ampacity sufficient for the load to be served...

If I run a #10 300' and connect a 3' #14 at the end, as long as both are sufficient for the load to be served, 210.19 has been satisfied for the most part. 210.19(A)(2 and 3) have ocpd/BC-rating to conductor ampacity related requirements. Since I already dfiscussed (3) in a recent post, take 210.19(A)(2) for example, if you have a multioutlet branch circuit with a 20A rating, does a #14 copper conductor meet its requirement? Does it have to be called a tap conductor? Remember, we are not in Article 240...

Ahaa Haa I see where you are trying to take the verbiage found in 210.19 that states that the conductor shall have an ampacity of not less than the load served and dropping from 20 amp circuit to a 15 amp conductor but you must include 210.20 in this equation which states that conductors must be protected by 240.4 which says #14 NM without exception is 15 amps.

So if you ran 300 feet of #10 and installed 3 feet of #14 then the #14 will be required to be protected by an overcurrent device that is not greater than 15 amps.
But if you ran a 20 amp circuit to a junction box and installed a #16 from that box to the lampholder it would be okay or if you installed a 50 amp branch circuit and ran a #12 to a cook top again it would be okay. Why? Because the tap permission given in the exceptions.

 

[jwelectric]

But by the simple definition of Branch Circuit in Article 100, "circuit conductors between the final overcurrent device protecting the circuit and the outlet(s)," a branch circuit tap conductor MUST be a branch circuit conductor. And a feeder tap conductor must be a feeder conductor.

A "branch circuit tap conductor" is a "branch circuit conductor" which has "overcurrent protection ahead of its point of supply that exceeds the value permitted for similar conductors that are protected as described elsewhere in 240.4."

But you yourself are using the term branch circuit "tap" which means you know there is a difference between the branch circuit and the tap.

Now when you install a recess can light where does your branch circuit stop?

Does this mean that you stopped wiring at the lighting outlet?

What size are those wires from that junction box and the load being served? Is not the lampholder the load?

When you hang a chandelier that has multi lampholder where does your branch circuit stop? At the box in the ceiling? Are not each of those lampholders the load?

Now many here has installed lights where you installed the small conductors and each lampholder in some of the high end chandeliers?

 

[jxofaltrds]

But you yourself are using the term branch circuit "tap" which means you know there is a difference between the branch circuit and the tap.

Now when you install a recess can light where does your branch circuit stop?

Does this mean that you stopped wiring at the lighting outlet?

What size are those wires from that junction box and the load being served? Is not the lampholder the load?

When you hang a chandelier that has multi lampholder where does your branch circuit stop? At the box in the ceiling? Are not each of those lampholders the load?

Now many here has installed lights where you installed the small conductors and each lampholder in some of the high end chandeliers?

Mike W. thanxs for the help.

The circuit STOPS at the 'outlet'. This was for others.

 

[david luchini]

But you yourself are using the term branch circuit "tap" which means you know there is a difference between the branch circuit and the tap.

Yes, the "difference" is how the circuit conductor is protected. The branch circuit conductor is either protected at its ampacity in accordance with 240.4, or it is protected by an OCPD that exceeds the value permitted for similar conductors per 240.4. But they conductors are still "branch circuit conductors," as they are conductors between the final OCPD and the outlets.

 

[jwelectric]

Yes, the "difference" is how the circuit conductor is protected. The branch circuit conductor is either protected at its ampacity in accordance with 240.4, or it is protected by an OCPD that exceeds the value permitted for similar conductors per 240.4. But they conductors are still "branch circuit conductors," as they are conductors between the final OCPD and the outlets.

Help me just a little here are you saying that branch circuits must be protected as outlined in 210.20(C) or if I want to I can protect the branch circuit with an overcurrent that is larger than outlined in 240.4
What you are saying is that if I want to I can protect#14 from the panel to the outlet with a 20 amp breaker as long as I say it is a tap on a branch therefore it must be branch also?

What part of this branch circuit can be protected by a larger overcurrent device?

Please help me understand what you are saying here.

It would seem to me that if the tap became part of the branch then the entire circuit would fall under the requirements of 210.20(C), what do you think?

 

[Smart $]

To 'me' there is no such thing as a service tap, only service conductors.

From a somewhat narrow perspective, compared to the gist of this thread, that is true... and in essence is the same thing I have been saying about branch-circuit tap conductors are still branch-circuit conductors.

 

[jwelectric]

From a somewhat narrow perspective, compared to the gist of this thread, that is true... and in essence is the same thing I have been saying about branch-circuit tap conductors are still branch-circuit conductors.

So if the branch circuit conductors are required to follow this rule;
210.20 Overcurrent Protection.
Branch-circuit conductors and equipment shall be protected by overcurrent protective devices that have a rating or setting that complies with 210.20(A) through (D).
(B) Conductor Protection. Conductors shall be protected in accordance with 240.4. Flexible cords and fixture wires shall be protected in accordance with 240.5.

and this would mean that if the tap conductors are still branch circuit conductors that a 20 amp circuit tapped with #14 copper would have to follow this rule

240.4(D) (3) 14 AWG Copper. 15 amperes

If the tap is still branch circuit conductors then once the tap is made then the branch circuit must be protected by no more than 15 amps.

Now if you are saying that the tap is indeed a tap then the rules outlined in the exception would apply as the exception clearly states if is directed toward the tap conductor

Exception No. 1: Tap conductors shall have an ampacity sufficient for the load served. In addition, they shall have an ampacity of not less than 15 for circuits rated less than 40 amperes and not less than 20 for circuits rated at 40 or 50 amperes and only where these tap conductors supply any of the following loads:
(a) Individual lampholders or luminaires with taps extending not longer than 450 mm (18 in.) beyond any portion of the lampholder or luminaire.
(b) A luminaire having tap conductors as provided in 410.117.
(c) Individual outlets, other than receptacle outlets, with taps not over 450 mm (18 in.) long.
(d) Infrared lamp industrial heating appliances.
(e) Nonheating leads of deicing and snow-melting cables and mats.
Exception No. 2: Fixture wires and flexible cords shall be permitted to be smaller than 14 AWG as permitted by 240.5.

 

[Smart $]

Well we are almost in agreement here...

Almost? From my perspective we're no less than a mile apart on a zero visibility day.

...but there are a couple of things that was left out.

First this tap to a 50 amp overcurrent device can take place in only one circumstance.

One is as good as many if it makes my point

Conductors tapped from a 50-ampere branch circuit supplying electric ranges, wall-mounted electric ovens, and counter-mounted electric cooking units

I pretty much thought that could go without saying

You are making it sound like any 50 amp circuit can be tapped by #14...

It can as long as the load (type spec'd above in quote of you) amperes is equal or less than the ampacity of the #14.

...which brings us back to the second mistake.

Type NM cable and this is what we are talking about is residential wiring methods, is only good for 15 amps using size #14 so this tap to the 50 amp range circuit with NM cable would require a #12 conductor.

Wrong.

Types NM, NMC, and NMS #14 has a 60?C ampacity of 20A (unless you are already working under the 2011 version of the NEC ), but the point is moot so long as the load is less than the conductor's ampacity

Then if that isn?t enough you are trying to use this exception for a cord and plug connect load. Just where did you pull that out of?

Just threw it in there... pay no mind to it because the CnP part has no bearing.

A tap conductor can not be a branch circuit conductor by the simple definition found in 240.2.

The definition of tap conductor does not say a tap conductor is not a branch-circuit or feeder conductor... does it?

Does the NEC say anywhere that a tap conductor is not a service, feeder, or branch-circuit conductor?

Where is the defintion of tap conductor in Article 210? You keep referring to the definition in 240.2, but even the definition itself "As used in this article", which if you didn't quite grasp the meaning, it means the definition does not apply to any other article.

It must be a tap conductor.

For all sakes and purposes, we can call it a tap conductor... but when we are in Article 210, we do not have to.

Using a simple though process tells us that if it was a branch circuit conductor there would be no need for the term ?tap conductor? now would there? ...

And in Article 210, there is no need for the term tap conductor. Just because it is in a couple exceptions does not mean it is necessary.

If we are tapping a branch circuit conductor with another branch circuit conductor why would there be any mention of tap in the exception.

You'll have to ask the CMP on this... 'cause it is not necessary.

The conductors outlined in the exceptions found in 210.19(A)(3)&(4) are described in the text as ?TAP? conductors and not branch circuit conductors.

Reality is full of items that can be described by more than one term. If you see a baby that is cute, and while that does imply that it is not ugly, does it imply that it is not also adorable.

Yes, it could be that a branch-circuit tap conductor is not also a branch-circuit conductor... but the defintion of branch circuit is going to have to change before that is the case.

 

[Smart $]

So if the branch circuit conductors are required to follow this rule;
210.20 Overcurrent Protection.
Branch-circuit conductors and equipment shall be protected by overcurrent protective devices that have a rating or setting that complies with 210.20(A) through (D).
(B) Conductor Protection. Conductors shall be protected in accordance with 240.4. Flexible cords and fixture wires shall be protected in accordance with 240.5.

and this would mean that if the tap conductors are still branch circuit conductors that a 20 amp circuit tapped with #14 copper would have to follow this rule

240.4(D) (3) 14 AWG Copper. 15 amperes

If the tap is still branch circuit conductors then once the tap is made then the branch circuit must be protected by no more than 15 amps.

Now if you are saying that the tap is indeed a tap then the rules outlined in the exception would apply as the exception clearly states if is directed toward the tap conductor

Exception No. 1: Tap conductors shall have an ampacity sufficient for the load served. In addition, they shall have an ampacity of not less than 15 for circuits rated less than 40 amperes and not less than 20 for circuits rated at 40 or 50 amperes and only where these tap conductors supply any of the following loads:
(a) Individual lampholders or luminaires with taps extending not longer than 450 mm (18 in.) beyond any portion of the lampholder or luminaire.
(b) A luminaire having tap conductors as provided in 410.117.
(c) Individual outlets, other than receptacle outlets, with taps not over 450 mm (18 in.) long.
(d) Infrared lamp industrial heating appliances.
(e) Nonheating leads of deicing and snow-melting cables and mats.
Exception No. 2: Fixture wires and flexible cords shall be permitted to be smaller than 14 AWG as permitted by 240.5.

Man, this is like a roundy-roundy...

...then again, it is a roundy-roundy