Do you agree/disagree ??

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jwelectric

Senior Member
Location
North Carolina
That 4" pancake has worked for me, but there is not enough room for in & out, you can only bring one 14/2 into the box (and that's only if your NM clamp is external).
And as long as the fixture is not a hanging type that has the conductors entering the box via an all thread tube, hickey, stud or what ever that is required by 314.16(B)(3) to be counted as a conductor making a 6 cu. in. box to small for a 14/2 with ground cable.
 

hillbilly

Senior Member
410.10 (2005)

What does that paragraph mean exactly?

I've been told before that it doesn't say what it says.

According to a rule that's quoted here often (Charlies rule?), it says what it says, not what I think it says, and not what I would like for it to say.:roll:

It doesn't mention cubic inch volumes, it just says what it says.:)

Funny.....I understand it completely.

I know that others will argue.
Not that it doesn't say what it says, but that it doesn't apply.

steve
 

cpal

Senior Member
Location
MA
That 4" pancake has worked for me, but there is not enough room for in & out, you can only bring one 14/2 into the box (and that's only if your NM clamp is external).
agreed! The conversation was focused to installing one cable.
 

electricmanscott

Senior Member
Location
Boston, MA
4 inch pancake with two 14/2 's. Other than the fact that this is a code violation ;) there is no good reason to not allow this. The fixture installed had more room in the canopy than a 4" round box would have. Installed just the other day in honor of Mike Whitt. :grin:

I will not loose one wink of sleep over this.

 

George Stolz

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Windsor, CO NEC: 2017
Occupation
Service Manager
This is from another site. No need to mention the poster. I think these two statements are a bit of a stretch but I may be wrong. What I do know is that if I can install a fixture directly to the box without the bar I always will.

If I have unused cable calmps in a box I will always remove them.
If the box is shipped from the manufacturer with the clamps installed then the clamps can not be removed in the field. Even if they are removed they are still counted just as if they were there by the inspector or at least the ones I teach.
Any thoughts?
That's preposterous.

314.16(B)(2)Clamp Fill. Where one or more internal cable clamps, whether factory or field supplied, are present in the box, a single volume allowance in accordance with Table 314.16(B) shall be made based on the largest conductor present in the box. No allowance shall be required for a cable connector with its clamping mechanism outside the box.
It does not say "shipped with the box" or "present inside the box when you bought it". :roll:

However, I did some poking around and found the original discussion that got you two rolling, and technically I think you would need to mark the fixture's canopy with it's volume in order to count it in the calculation.

314.16(A) Box Volume Calculations. The volume of a wiring enclosure (box) shall be the total volume of the assembled sections and, where used, the space provided by plaster rings, domed covers, extension rings, and so forth, that are marked with their volume or are made from boxes the dimensions of which are listed in Table 314.16(A).
It does not say that the canopy need be marked by the manufacturer with it's volume, simply "marked." I'd say if you can calculate and you have a marker then you have all the tools you need to use a pancake box. :)
 
That's preposterous.


It does not say "shipped with the box" or "present inside the box when you bought it". :roll:

However, I did some poking around and found the original discussion that got you two rolling, and technically I think you would need to mark the fixture's canopy with it's volume in order to count it in the calculation.


It does not say that the canopy need be marked by the manufacturer with it's volume, simply "marked." I'd say if you can calculate and you have a marker then you have all the tools you need to use a pancake box. :)
There actually is an easy way to calculate canopy fill.

Using duct tape, tape the bottom holes in the canopy so it is now a 'bowl'. Next, carefully fill the bowl you just made with water. Carefully pour the water the bowl holds into a marked measuring cup and use this to measure, in fluid ounces, the amount of water in the canopy. For example, let's say you got 3.5 fluid ounces.

Go to Google and enter 3.5 fl. oz. in cu. in.

You will come up with 6.31640625 cubic inches. Mark that figure somewhere on the canopy. After you dry it out, of course.
 

jwelectric

Senior Member
Location
North Carolina
Is a light fixture a piece of equipment?

As defined by Article 100 of the NEC

Equipment. A general term, including material, fittings, devices, appliances, luminaires, apparatus, machinery, and the like used as a part of, or in connection with, an electrical installation.

What does section 314.16 have to say about the strap that a light fixture is mounted to?

314.16(B) (4) Device or Equipment Fill. For each yoke or strap containing one or more devices or equipment, a double volume allowance in accordance with Table 314.16(B) shall be made for each yoke or strap based on the largest conductor connected to a device(s) or equipment supported by that yoke or strap. A device or utilization equipment wider than a single 50 mm (2 in.) device box as described in Table 314.16(A) shall have double volume allowances provided for each gang required for mounting.

Reading the text outlined in red I am left under the impression that the strap counts as something.

What does 314.16 have to say about clamps?

314.16(B) (2) Clamp Fill. Where one or more internal cable clamps, whether factory or field supplied, are present in the box, a single volume allowance in accordance with Table 314.16(B) shall be made based on the largest conductor present in the box. No allowance shall be required for a cable connector with its clamping mechanism outside the box.

It is easy to see that the clamping mechanism is on the inside of the box.


Would Scott?s installation be code compliant?


It is easy to see that the clamping mechanism is on the inside of the box.

There is a strap installed to mount a piece of electrical equipment from.

I say that there is a code violation.


George,

Thanks as I needed a good laugh this morning.
 

George Stolz

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Windsor, CO NEC: 2017
Occupation
Service Manager
Mike, how many luminaires are contained within that strap? I'm unable to increase the picture size sufficiently to see those luminaires.

I am also unable to see the luminaire that will cover that box, so I am unable to determine as to whether there is a violation or not.

Edit to add: Can you show me an extension ring listed to be installed on that box?
 

mivey

Senior Member
Mike, how many luminaires are contained within that strap? I'm unable to increase the picture size sufficiently to see those luminaires.

I am also unable to see the luminaire that will cover that box, so I am unable to determine as to whether there is a violation or not.

Edit to add: Can you show me an extension ring listed to be installed on that box?
You need better software. If you zoom in on the screw, and apply MI5 digital enhancement, you can see the reflection of the luminaire sitting on the ground.

Here is the digitally-enhanced picture:
MI5_DigiTool_ver367_build2156_img76391
 

cpal

Senior Member
Location
MA
we probably need to start a poll

I vote
a fixture strap does not consume interior volumn, a strap supporting a device does. (receptacle switch)

I vote removed internal clamps do not consume interior volumn (they are not present)

I vote I can field remove the clamps ( I've watched myself do it)

I just want to be democratic.
 

mivey

Senior Member
I vote I can field remove the clamps ( I've watched myself do it)
...and in tonight's headlines: CAUGHT ON CAMERA: We put a hidden camera inside an outlet box. In this exclusive video you can clearly see the contractor...

If I remove the clamps, I'm getting some volume allowance back.
 

jwelectric

Senior Member
Location
North Carolina
Mike, how many luminaires are contained within that strap? I'm unable to increase the picture size sufficiently to see those luminaires.

I am also unable to see the luminaire that will cover that box, so I am unable to determine as to whether there is a violation or not.

Edit to add: Can you show me an extension ring listed to be installed on that box?
Well George I ain?t the brightest bulb in the box but I just don?t see a switch or receptacle in that strap either but in the very last of that section I do see how the light fixture is supported by the strap.
Can you see this?

As with any other box on the market today that contains a UL label and is tested and listed with a clamp that clamp is part of the listing even if it is removed.

One more prime case of just what is being said by the NEC and do we take those words at face value or do we just pick that part we would like to accept. Just what was Charlie?s rule again?
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
Mike I am going to be blunt here, I know a guy with such strong opinions can take it.


Well George I ain’t the brightest bulb in the box but I just don’t see a switch or receptacle in that strap either but in the very last of that section I do see how the light fixture is supported by the strap.
Can you see this?
If you are really trying to say the fixture strap must be treated the same as a 'Despard strap' or a device yoke I have to agree .............. your not the brightest bulb in the box. :roll::grin:

This is the type of strap that code section is talking about



It is a 'Despard strap' for mounting devices such as switches, pilot lights and receptacles, not lighting fixtures. When in use it will in fact 'contain' a device.


As with any other box on the market today that contains a UL label and is tested and listed with a clamp that clamp is part of the listing even if it is removed.
Now your just really going of the deep end here, I hope your just trolling but fear your are serious. :roll:

One more prime case of just what is being said by the NEC and do we take those words at face value or do we just pick that part we would like to accept. Just what was Charlie’s rule again?
Charlie's rules does not explain your above misguided NEC interpretations.

I feel for your students.
 

jwelectric

Senior Member
Location
North Carolina
Care to explain the rest of the section in question?
?or equipment supported by that yoke or strap.?

Now your just really going of the deep end here, I hope your just trolling but fear your are serious.

Maybe and then again maybe not.

If I remember this thread started off addressing a 3.5 cu. in. box and could it be used to mount a light fixture that was supplied by 14/2 with ground. The answer to that question is simply, N0.
 
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