Do you agree/disagree ??

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Sharpie

Senior Member
Location
PA
I don't mean to open another can of worms (or maybe I do!), but what about the overlap that a canopy has over the box. Just think of all that combustible material (whatever the wall/ceiling is made out of) that's exposed to the wiring. What do we do with that? :confused:
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
I am only pointing out the verbiage of the code as it is written. I am not trying to point out any intent simply because intent can?t be enforced. I am not making any opinion; once again I am simply quoting what is written in the book that you bought with your hard earned money.
The verbiage with your personal interpretation added.

Nowhere does is specify that a yoke or strap is required to be in a box
And as I pointed out it does not even specify the yoke or strap be in the same state as the box we are calculating fill for. So under your interpretation there is not a box big enough for all the yoke and strap fill we would have to include.

It doesn?t much matter if it is written badly or not, it is written as it is written and that is what we have.
So you would enforce this line onto an EC?

If so that is really and truly sad.

It seems the entire country understands what that section requires, if your having an issue with it send in a code proposal. :)

Yes Scott that button as you call it has its clamping mechanism on the inside of the box therefore it counts as one conductor.
Ah ....... no, the clamping mechanism is not 'inside the box' and anyone can see it does not reduce the box volume.
 

mivey

Senior Member
...nor does it specify that equipment does not include a light fixture that is supported by a strap or ?bar? if you prefer.
It does not say it includes it. That is something you added.

NEC 314.16(B)(4): "For each yoke or strap containing one or more devices or equipment..."

I don't see by any stretch of the imagination how the bar contains the light fixture.
 

jwelectric

Senior Member
Location
North Carolina
The verbiage with your personal interpretation added.
It is you that has posted a picture of the kind of strap you think that the code is referring to not me. All I have done is point out the section of code in question without injecting any bias or opinion at all. It says what it says.




And as I pointed out it does not even specify the yoke or strap be in the same state as the box we are calculating fill for. So under your interpretation there is not a box big enough for all the yoke and strap fill we would have to include.
If that is the way you see it then it is the way you see it but with a little reading it is easy to see that it is addressing the strap that is holding something to the box.




So you would enforce this line onto an EC?
Any code enforcement official has sworn to enforce the code as it is written or at least in NC they are



It seems the entire country understands what that section requires, if your having an issue with it send in a code proposal.
I don?t have an issue with the way it is written



Ah ....... no, the clamping mechanism is not 'inside the box' and anyone can see it does not reduce the box volume.
Now Bob I am going out on a limb here and ask that you have your eyes checked if you can?t see that the part of that clamp that is holding the cable is clearly inside that box. As a matter of fact the entire clamp except the ring that prevents the clamp from pushing through is inside the box.
 

infinity

Moderator
Staff member
Location
New Jersey

Yes Scott that button as you call it has its clamping mechanism on the inside of the box therefore it counts as one conductor.
Seems to me that the last sentence of 314.16(B)(2) was written long before these type of cable connectors were made. Logically they would take up no more room in the box than a two screw NM connector with the screws on the outside of the box therefore they would not need to be counted for box fill. However if you look closely at the connector in the photo isn't the actual clamping part of the connector in the box?
 

jwelectric

Senior Member
Location
North Carolina
It does not say it includes it. That is something you added.

NEC 314.16(B)(4): "For each yoke or strap containing one or more devices or equipment..."

I don't see by any stretch of the imagination how the bar contains the light fixture.
Nor does it contain a switch or receptacle. Each of these devices contains the strap or yoke.

Now read the entire sentence,
(4) Device or Equipment Fill. For each yoke or strap containing one or more devices or equipment, a double volume allowance in accordance with Table 314.16(B) shall be made for each yoke or strap based on the largest conductor connected to a device(s) or equipment supported by that yoke or strap.

Are you saying that the strap does not support the light? Does it specify that only switches or receptacles are to be counted?
 

jwelectric

Senior Member
Location
North Carolina
Seems to me that the last sentence of 314.16(B)(2) was written long before these type of cable connectors were made. Logically they would take up no more room in the box than a two screw NM connector with the screws on the outside of the box therefore they would not need to be counted for box fill. However if you look closely at the connector in the photo isn't the actual clamping part of the connector in the box?
Yes and therefore must be counted as one conductor. The two screw connector is the only one I can think of off the top of my head that has the clamp on the outside of the box
 

mivey

Senior Member
Nor does it contain a switch or receptacle. Each of these devices contains the strap or yoke.
I disagree. The yoke contains the switch or receptacle.
Are you saying that the strap does not support the light?
The strap supports the light but the light is not contained in the strap. You can't exclude the first part.
Does it specify that only switches or receptacles are to be counted?
Never said it did.
 

mivey

Senior Member

George Stolz

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Windsor, CO NEC: 2017
Occupation
Service Manager
Here are some GFCI devices that are neither switch nor receptacle but would be included in the box fill...
I've usually seen dead fronts labeled as "switches", but I like your point about the step lights.

mivey said:
The strap supports the light but the light is not contained in the strap. You can't exclude the first part.
Agreed.

jwelectric said:
Nor does it contain a switch or receptacle. Each of these devices contains the strap or yoke.
In that case, there's not a device in the world subject to box fill. :roll:

jwelectric said:
All I have done is point out the section of code in question without injecting any bias or opinion at all. It says what it says.
jwelectric said:
Any code enforcement official has sworn to enforce the code as it is written or at least in NC they are
These two statements simply flabbergast me. You don't see your opinion as an opinion, and then you teach inspectors as though your opinion were an unquestioned, universally accepted fact. They are sworn to enforce the code, and then you introduce your opinion as pure code. I'm not saying that inspectors can't read for themselves, but quite often (at least around here) inspectors are not electricians by trade, but are plumbers and carpenters certified as combination inspectors. Quite a few of these inspectors would be willing to ignore the precise wording of the NEC to comply with what they perceive to be a generally accepted interpretation delivered with authority, to keep things simple.

Your approach seems ready-made to be accepted by these individuals as fact, and I think that does not help. It's better to get the code improved where it is unclear, rather than ignore the shortcomings because confusion suits an agenda.


314.16.(B)(4)

....A device or utilization equipment wider than a single 50 mm (2 in.) device box as described in Table 314.16(A) shall have double volume allowances provided for each gang required for mounting.
How many gangs does the 4" round box in Scott's contain, Mike?

How is the fixture contained in the strap?
 

jwelectric

Senior Member
Location
North Carolina
In that case, there's not a device in the world subject to box fill.
We are beginning to agree just a little. I do believe that it is the strap or yoke that is mentioned for box fill not the device.

These two statements simply flabbergast me. You don't see your opinion as an opinion, and then you teach inspectors as though your opinion were an unquestioned, universally accepted fact. They are sworn to enforce the code, and then you introduce your opinion as pure code. I'm not saying that inspectors can't read for themselves, but quite often (at least around here) inspectors are not electricians by trade, but are plumbers and carpenters certified as combination inspectors. Quite a few of these inspectors would be willing to ignore the precise wording of the NEC to comply with what they perceive to be a generally accepted interpretation delivered with authority, to keep things simple.

I suppose that when someone disagrees with you it could flabbergast you. As to my opinion; it is not being injected into the words as they are printed. All I have done to this point is quote what is printed. It seems that a lot here has been trying to explain what the section ?means? without doing any quoting. These are the ones injecting their opinion.

Your approach seems ready-made to be accepted by these individuals as fact, and I think that does not help. It's better to get the code improved where it is unclear, rather than ignore the shortcomings because confusion suits an agenda.
So what you are saying is that this section is confusing and unclear and needs the opinion of others instead of meaning just what it says. It says what it says

How many gangs does the 4" round box in Scott's contain, Mike?
I fail to see how you can compare a round box to a single gain device box as outlined in the section you are referring to. Being that there is only one strap held by two screws I would think it would be a single count.

How is the fixture contained in the strap?
What part of supported requires it to be contained in the strap. The strap contains the fixture to the box and prevents it from flopping around in the wind wouldn?t you think? I can?t see where a duplex or switch is contained in the strap but can see where it is supported by the strap and contained to the box by the strap. It is the strap or yoke that is counted not the device.
 

mivey

Senior Member
We are beginning to agree just a little. I do believe that it is the strap or yoke that is mentioned for box fill not the device. If the fixture support is within the volume, it should be included. Normally the fixture bar is outside the volume under consideration but in the case of a canopy, it would count.

I suppose that when someone disagrees with you it could flabbergast you. As to my opinion; it is not being injected into the words as they are printed. All I have done to this point is quote what is printed. It seems that a lot here has been trying to explain what the section ?means? without doing any quoting. These are the ones injecting their opinion.They is you. Please find me the code as printed for this quote:
Nor does it contain a switch or receptacle. Each of these devices contains the strap or yoke.
So what you are saying is that this section is confusing and unclear and needs the opinion of others instead of meaning just what it says. It says what it says

I fail to see how you can compare a round box to a single gain device box as outlined in the section you are referring to. Being that there is only one strap held by two screws I would think it would be a single count.

What part of supported requires it to be contained in the strap. The strap contains the fixture to the box and prevents it from flopping around in the wind wouldn?t you think? I can?t see where a duplex or switch is contained in the strap but can see where it is supported by the strap and contained to the box by the strap. It is the strap or yoke that is counted not the device.
The key word being "to" You are saying it is contained "to" the box when you should be saying contained "in" the box (or the volume being evaluated).
 

wwhitney

Senior Member
Location
Berkeley, CA
How about the following: if a box supports a strap which supports a threaded rod which supports a luminaire, then let's say the threaded rod is a piece of equipment contained in the strap. But there are no conductors attached to the threaded rod, so no allowance for box fill is required. The luminaire itself, to which the conductors are attached, is not contained in the strap; it is supported by the threaded rod.

Cheers, Wayne
 

jwelectric

Senior Member
Location
North Carolina
The key word being "to" You are saying it is contained "to" the box when you should be saying contained "in" the box (or the volume being evaluated).
I challenge you to show me where the requirement for anything to be in the box is found.

(4) Device or Equipment Fill. For each yoke or strap containing one or more devices or equipment, a double volume allowance in accordance with Table 314.16(B) shall be made for each yoke or strap based on the largest conductor connected to a device(s) or equipment supported by that yoke or strap. A device or utilization equipment wider than a single 50 mm (2 in.) device box as described in Table 314.16(A) shall have double volume allowances provided for each gang required for mounting.

This section says what it says and it does not say that anything is required to be inside the box in order to be counted. Anyone who says it does in doing nothing more than injecting their opinion into what is not written on the page.


How about the following: if a box supports a strap which supports a threaded rod which supports a luminaire, then let's say the threaded rod is a piece of equipment contained in the strap. But there are no conductors attached to the threaded rod, so no allowance for box fill is required. The luminaire itself, to which the conductors are attached, is not contained in the strap; it is supported by the threaded rod.
Cheers, Wayne
To this I would simply ask what the definition of equipment is.

Equipment. A general term, including material, fittings, devices, appliances, luminaires, apparatus, machinery, and the like used as a part of, or in connection with, an electrical installation.

It looks like it would fit the definition of equipment to me how about you?
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
Now Bob I am going out on a limb here and ask that you have your eyes checked if you can?t see that the part of that clamp that is holding the cable is clearly inside that box. As a matter of fact the entire clamp except the ring that prevents the clamp from pushing through is inside the box.
Seems to me that the last sentence of 314.16(B)(2) was written long before these type of cable connectors were made. Logically they would take up no more room in the box than a two screw NM connector with the screws on the outside of the box therefore they would not need to be counted for box fill. However if you look closely at the connector in the photo isn't the actual clamping part of the connector in the box?
I would say the clamping mechanism is in the wall of the box, not inside the box. There is less of it inside the box than a typical two screw NM connector but lets not let commonsense get in the way of being obstinate.

http://70.86.88.179/new_images/a_118698_1.jpg

But I am not interested in arguing the point so lets call it in the box and move on, we already have way to much foolish BS in this thread.:roll:
 

wwhitney

Senior Member
Location
Berkeley, CA
Let me back up and ask a more basic question. For a flush mouned luminaire attached to a strap attached to a box, do you include the fixture wiring pigtails in the number of conductors counted in 314.15(B)(1)? It seems like the luminaire connections should be counted once, either via the pigtails under 314.15(B)(1), or via the strap in 314.15(B)(4), but not both.

Cheers, Wayne
 

LarryFine

Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
A fixture bar on the plane of the wall, or on the face of the box, certainly does not affect the box's volume.

For all practical purposes, it's a two-dimensional object. Even the 4" round plates with holes in them are flat.
 

jwelectric

Senior Member
Location
North Carolina
I would say the clamping mechanism is in the wall of the box, not inside the box. There is less of it inside the box than a typical two screw NM connector but lets not let commonsense get in the way of being obstinate.

http://70.86.88.179/new_images/a_118698_1.jpg

But I am not interested in arguing the point so lets call it in the box and move on, we already have way to much foolish BS in this thread.:roll:
9-41 Log #3910 NEC-P09
Final Action: Reject
(314.16(B)(2))

_______________________________________________________________​
Submitter:
Andrew Darois, David Kramer Electric

Recommendation:
Revise text as follows:
Clamps in molded plastic boxes that are built in shall not be counted.

Substantiation:
These boxes are made with the clamps. Their volume is
calculated taking into account the clamps. Some inspectors will have you count
the clamps.

Panel Meeting Action: Reject

Panel Statement:
The submitter?s substantiation is inaccurate. The total cubic
inches for nonmetallic boxes is determined with the internal cable clamps
removed prior to the determination by the third-party testing agency. The
requirement to take a single volume allowance for cable clamps is based on the fact that the clamps reduce the usable volume in the box when the box is wired.
A molded clamp will reduce the usable volume when it is employed.

Number Eligible to Vote: 12
Ballot Results:
Affirmative: 12
_______________________________________________________________

 

Sharpie

Senior Member
Location
PA
9-41 Log #3910 NEC-P09
Final Action: Reject
(314.16(B)(2))

_______________________________________________________________​
Submitter:
Andrew Darois, David Kramer Electric

Recommendation:
Revise text as follows:
Clamps in molded plastic boxes that are built in shall not be counted.

Substantiation:
These boxes are made with the clamps. Their volume is
calculated taking into account the clamps. Some inspectors will have you count
the clamps.

Panel Meeting Action: Reject

Panel Statement:
The submitter?s substantiation is inaccurate. The total cubic
inches for nonmetallic boxes is determined with the internal cable clamps
removed prior to the determination by the third-party testing agency. The
requirement to take a single volume allowance for cable clamps is based on the fact that the clamps reduce the usable volume in the box when the box is wired.
A molded clamp will reduce the usable volume when it is employed.

Number Eligible to Vote: 12
Ballot Results:
Affirmative: 12
_______________________________________________________________

I personally think that the panel response there is "Bull Honky".

I agree with the recommendation mentioned, which the panel rejected.

I will agree that that little 1/2" x 1/2" piece of plastic will protrude into the box, however the amount of space it takes is not substantial.

Just my two cents.
 
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