Do you agree/disagree ??

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iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
Care to explain the rest of the section in question?
?or equipment supported by that yoke or strap.?
Yes, code writing without thinking anyone would ever consider a fixture strap a device strap. :roll:

They are talking about device or equipment fill of a box, a 'luminaire' does not fill the box. Even the fixture bar does not fill the box, it is outside the box.
 

jwelectric

Senior Member
Location
North Carolina
Just so we are both on the same page here let me explain what I am seeing.

(B) Box Fill Calculations.
(1) Conductor Fill. Each conductor that originates outside the box and terminates or is spliced within the box
(2) Clamp Fill. Where one or more internal cable clamps, whether factory or field supplied, are present in the box,
(3) Support Fittings Fill. Where one or more luminaire studs or hickeys are present in the box,

(4) Device or Equipment Fill.
I just don?t see in (4) where anything has to be in the box. Could you point out that part to me please? It simply says that all the strap has to do is support the piece of equipment and the strap for a fixture does just that does it not. It contains the fixture to the box.

(5) Equipment Grounding Conductor Fill. Where one or more equipment grounding ??. present in the box.

I am simply trying to point out what is written there in black and white. I am open for anything anyone can show me. I am not trying to prove anything one way or the other and I sure am not injecting any opinion. It says what it says, nothing more and nothing less.
 

joebell

Senior Member
Location
New Hampshire
I agree with Mike as far as the Op goes, not using the fixture strap is a violation of 110.3. Have I violated this....Many Times some of those straps are more trouble to install.

As far as the 3.5 in box goes it is a violation installing a 14/2 nm by itself no doubt about it at the very least you have a conductor fill of 5 cubic inches with an external clamp being used, but as stated in an earlier post the requirements of 314.16(A) would allow the canopy of the fixture to be included in the total cu in calculation. That being said if the canopy is inclusive the fixure strap would then be located inside the cubic inch space of the total enclosure and need to be counted.




Joe
 

jwelectric

Senior Member
Location
North Carolina
I agree with Mike as far as the Op goes, not using the fixture strap is a violation of 110.3. Have I violated this....Many Times some of those straps are more trouble to install.

As far as the 3.5 in box goes it is a violation installing a 14/2 nm by itself no doubt about it at the very least you have a conductor fill of 5 cubic inches with an external clamp being used, but as stated in an earlier post the requirements of 314.16(A) would allow the canopy of the fixture to be included in the total cu in calculation. That being said if the canopy is inclusive the fixure strap would then be located inside the cubic inch space of the total enclosure and need to be counted.




Joe

Be careful as agreeing with me can draw fire to you. It makes perfect sense what you say. If someone is going to argue that the canopy is included in the cubic inch then the strap is right in the middle but it is hard to get some to see this.

I still am waiting for someone to show me where it says that the strap is required to be inside the box in order to be counted.
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
Be careful as agreeing with me can draw fire to you. It makes perfect sense what you say. If someone is going to argue that the canopy is included in the cubic inch then the strap is right in the middle but it is hard to get some to see this.
Mike we can see it, we just don't agree that a fixture bar 'contains a fixture' so the fixture bar has nothing to do with box fill.

I still am waiting for someone to show me where it says that the strap is required to be inside the box in order to be counted.

And I am still waiting to see you explain how an item outside a box can fill a box.:D


As far as having to use all the parts that come with a fixture what happens when they send two sizes of screws, must I use the extra ones that do not fit?

This rates as one of the most ridiculous things I have read on these forums.:grin:
 

scwirenut

Senior Member
4 inch pancake with two 14/2 's. Other than the fact that this is a code violation ;) there is no good reason to not allow this. The fixture installed had more room in the canopy than a 4" round box would have. Installed just the other day in honor of Mike Whitt. :grin:

I will not loose one wink of sleep over this.



this is exactly how I install these, however one could also say the romex is in a wet location.
 

jwelectric

Senior Member
Location
North Carolina
There are five subparts to subpart (B) of 314.16. Four of these subparts are very careful to point out that the subject matter of that subsection is to be inside the box in order to be included in the calculation.
Subpart (4) makes no mention of the requirement to be inside the box in order for it to be included in the calculation. There must be a reason for this. Someone care to explain in a way that a two year old can understand why these people forgot to include this requirement in this subsection?

It has also been said that subpart (4) is addressing only devices that are manufactured with the mounting yoke or strap as part of the device.
This subpart has a conjunction at the end of the first sentence that conjoins the statement expressed by others to the second half, ?or equipment supported by that yoke or strap.?

In the picture above it is clear that the fixture is going to be supported by that strap. Luminaries are found in the definition of equipment in Article 100.
The box is a 6 cu. in. box that is supplied by a 14/2 with ground and the clamping mechanism is on the inside making a total of 8 cu. in fill for the box which is a violation of 314.16.

Now the argument comes that the canopy for the light has enough room to accommodate the extra fill of the box. Using this argument then places the strap right in the middle of the box negating any argument that the strap is outside although I can find no requirement that it is required to be inside in order to be included in the calculation. Seems that some are trying to talk from both sides of their face on this matter.

Now I have read this several times and can come to no other conclusion unless someone can show me where to read something different. It says what it says, nothing more and nothing less.
If this line of thought is incorrect I am more than eager to learn so please show me where to read.
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
There are five subparts to subpart (B) of 314.16. Four of these subparts are very careful to point out that the subject matter of that subsection is to be inside the box in order to be included in the calculation.
Subpart (4) makes no mention of the requirement to be inside the box in order for it to be included in the calculation. There must be a reason for this.
Must there be a reason, or is that just how the proposal was sent in back in the day?

If I read it in the way that you want me too all the device yokes and straps in the entire world count against box fill as part (4) makes no mention of the yokes or straps being 'in' or 'on' or 'connected to' or even 'in the same building' as the box we are calculating for.

Obviously that is not the intent of that section.

If you believe that is the intent of the section than I don't know what to say.:confused:

If your entire point has been that the wording could be better than just say so clearly without trying to be clever.

It has also been said that subpart (4) is addressing only devices that are manufactured with the mounting yoke or strap as part of the device.
This subpart has a conjunction at the end of the first sentence that conjoins the statement expressed by others to the second half, “or equipment supported by that yoke or strap.”
I posted a picture of a despard strap, it is designed to support equipment inside the box that would actually reduce the volume of the box. IMO that is the type of strap the code section refers to. It defies common sense to say that a fixture strap external to the box supporting a fixture outside the box reduces box volume.

In the picture above it is clear that the fixture is going to be supported by that strap. Luminaries are found in the definition of equipment in Article 100.
IMO the NEC does not require volume reductions for equipment external to the box.

Is it your belief that the NEC expects us to reduce the box volume for equipment external to the box or are you just pointing out a wording issue?

I am asking for a direct and concise answer to the above question. I don't think that is to much to expect.

Now the argument comes that the canopy for the light has enough room to accommodate the extra fill of the box. Using this argument then places the strap right in the middle of the box negating any argument that the strap is outside although.
But you say we can't count the canopy volume so obviously the strap does not count.

I can find no requirement that it is required to be inside in order to be included in the calculation.
Using that logic, a blank plate should also reduce box volume just as the fixture bar should.

Seems that some are trying to talk from both sides of their face on this matter.
Seems that applies all around. :roll:
 

jxofaltrds

Senior Member
Location
Mike P. Columbus Ohio
Occupation
ESI
"As far as having to use all the parts that come with a fixture what happens when they send two sizes of screws, must I use the extra ones that do not fit?"

Yes I have customers complain when the dining room light is 2' of the floor because I use all the chain that came with the light.
 

George Stolz

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Windsor, CO NEC: 2017
Occupation
Service Manager
Now the argument comes that the canopy for the light has enough room to accommodate the extra fill of the box. Using this argument then places the strap right in the middle of the box negating any argument that the strap is outside...
Not IMO. The code states clearly that the canopy can contribute to allowed box volume and not lose it's identity as a "canopy."

jwelectric said:
I am not trying to prove anything one way or the other and I sure am not injecting any opinion. It says what it says, nothing more and nothing less.
I think this could be why these arguments tend to conclude with everyone agreeing to disagree. If you don't even feel your interpretation is an opinion, then we have very little leverage with which to change your mind, ey?


I think my problem is on the opposite end of the spectrum, I have been burned so many times by so many different reads on things that I took for granted, that these days I feel the NEC can be manipulated by anyone to say anything, to beat me over the head with it.
 

infinity

Moderator
Staff member
Location
New Jersey
Is that piece of metal that comes with a fixture really a strap? We call them fixture bars not straps. Does the NEC define them to be the same as a device yoke? IMO, no therefore they don't count for anything regarding box fill.

T314.16(A) tells me what the minimum volume is for a box that isn't otherwise marked with a volume amount. From that number I can deduce whether or not I need to subtract a given number of cu in's for a clamp. No clamp no deduction, one or two clamps one conductor deduction. George provided the reference for clamp fill which states that it must be present in the box to count.
 

electricmanscott

Senior Member
Location
Boston, MA
Is that piece of metal that comes with a fixture really a strap? We call them fixture bars not straps. Does the NEC define them to be the same as a device yoke? IMO, no therefore they don't count for anything regarding box fill.


I have never and would never count a fixture bar in cu in calculations.
 
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electricmanscott

Senior Member
Location
Boston, MA
In the picture above it is clear that the fixture is going to be supported by that strap. Luminaries are found in the definition of equipment in Article 100.
The box is a 6 cu. in. box that is supplied by a 14/2 with ground and the clamping mechanism is on the inside making a total of 8 cu. in fill for the box which is a violation of 314.16.

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Would you really count that black button connector towards box fill? :confused:

Just two be clear, that 4' pancake box has....hang on tight........ TWO 14/2's !! OMG!!!
 
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jwelectric

Senior Member
Location
North Carolina
I am only pointing out the verbiage of the code as it is written. I am not trying to point out any intent simply because intent can?t be enforced. I am not making any opinion; once again I am simply quoting what is written in the book that you bought with your hard earned money.

Nowhere does is specify that a yoke or strap is required to be in a box nor does it specify that equipment does not include a light fixture that is supported by a strap or ?bar? if you prefer.

It doesn?t much matter if it is written badly or not, it is written as it is written and that is what we have.

Yes Scott that button as you call it has its clamping mechanism on the inside of the box therefore it counts as one conductor.
 
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