mivey
Senior Member
How can it be any more intrusive than the end of a romex connector and locknut? Same thing for MC cable connectors with the clamp outside.
Do you agree/disagree ??
- Thread starter electricmanscott
- Start date
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- Location
- Massachusetts
Mike not that the above address's what we where talking about what part of this was hard to understand?
iwire said:
wasasparky
Senior Member
There is no "in the box" reference, since the yoke/strap is not in the box.
Later where device/equip is stated, the words "in the box" should be included... (The whole point is "fill" which obviously(?) deals with something that will displace the volume of the box...)
"Contain" is the key word, although "support" is mentioned later in the section.
[Contain - to have within, implies actual presence of substance within something]
peter d
Senior Member
- Location
- New England
I will offer my opinion that this is one of the most absurd issues I've ever seen raised on this forum.
Any of us who have done residential work have done the exact same installation in Scott's picture countless times, and will continue to do so without a second thought. But darn it...next time I need to install a pancake box for something I'm going to have this ridiculous discussion bouncing around in my head. :roll:
Any of us who have done residential work have done the exact same installation in Scott's picture countless times, and will continue to do so without a second thought. But darn it...next time I need to install a pancake box for something I'm going to have this ridiculous discussion bouncing around in my head. :roll:
mivey
Senior Member
Just ignore the echo and it will be OK.:grin:But darn it...next time I need to install a pancake box for something I'm going to have this ridiculous discussion bouncing around in my head. :roll:
- Location
- Massachusetts
peter d
Senior Member
- Location
- New England
Ouch! I need to go cry now.
mivey
Senior Member
That was taken completely out of context. Ummm.........I meant the echo from the mutiple posts saying the same thing, of course.:grin:
LarryFine
Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
- Location
- Henrico County, VA
- Occupation
- Electrical Contractor
Ah, the Raco Insider. They're great for new NM home runs into existing flush panels.
LarryFine
Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
- Location
- Henrico County, VA
- Occupation
- Electrical Contractor
You should know by now that matters of mere fact are usually answered within a few posts, but the philosophical topics go on forever.
jwelectric
Senior Member
- Location
- North Carolina
Above is the questions asked in the original post which can be easily answered.
If the installation instructions that came with the fixture says to use the strap then it would be a violation of 110.3(B) to install the fixture in any other manner no matter if it works or not.
The UL White Book states that the box in question comes from the manufacturer with the clamps installed then the box was listed with the clamps installed and to remove them in the field would alter the listing of the box plain and simple.
The discussion has somehow evolved to be about the strap and the clamp.
There are those who think that the clamp does not count although the code clearly states that the clamp must count as one conductor if the part that holds the cable in place is on the inside of the box.
Some have debated that the strap must be in the box in order to be counted although no one has produced any verbiage to back that statement.
There was a picture posted of a strap that itself would not be inside the box and the comment made that this was the kind of strap the code was referring too but not one word quoted from the code to back that this strap would be the only strap that would count.
A direct quote of the section shows nothing about the strap being required to be inside the box nor is there any mention of the type of strap that would count leaving the interpretation that any strap would count.
Some here quote part of the section saying that there has to be something internal with the strap but don?t explain the, ?or supported by the strap? part of the section.
I don?t see any where that calls for an allowance for such things such as switches or receptacle although I do see an allowance for such items such as straps and yokes that either have a device or that supports electrical equipment.
My question which no one has answered as yet is where is the verbiage that requires that the strap be on the inside the box or where is the verbiage that says that it must be holding something that is inside the box.
I think that the section is very clear myself as I am not trying to inject anything into the section nor am I trying to say this is what it means. I am simply quoting the section and asking where it states that the strap is required to be inside the box or be holding something that is inside the box.
Call me stubborn or even crazy if it makes you feel better but please explain your statements with quotes from the code instead of what you think the section is addressing. I have quoted the code as it is written. I have not injected one word of opinion and have purposely kept my opinion silent even after Iwire asked for it.
From reading what some have posted here I am under the impression that most think that the conductor fill allowances has something to do with the amount of area that if being filled by some object. The purpose of box fill calculations has to do with heat dissipation.
electricmanscott
Senior Member
- Location
- Boston, MA
jwelectric;1107218[FONT=Times New Roman said:
Your stubborn and crazy. Ahhh I do feel better.
I will not count a fixture bar towards box fill
I will not use the fixture bar if not needed
I will not hesitate to remove clamps from a box if not needed
I will not count clamps that have been removed from a box toards fill
I will not count the black button connector towards box fill
I will not worry about using a panckake box in certain cases
I will not loose any sleep over the items I just mentioned
I do not need written instructions to follw every little step of an electrical installation. I have enough knowledge, experience and common sense to know the difference between a safe installation or a hazardous one.
If you ask me, which you didn't, if there were more people like me, the trade wouldn't need to be dumbed down to the point where we are now. Where is that you ask? We are at a point where a perfectly safe installation can be failed by an inspector for no other reason than "you mounted that fixture without the fixture bar, that's a lisitng violation!!!" But inspector, what is the actual problem or hazard? Well there isn't really one but this piece of paper tells me it has to be this way so I have to follow the paper. " :roll:
jwelectric
Senior Member
- Location
- North Carolina
It is the last sentence of your last post that keeps us from living in total chaos throughout our wonderful land.
A couple of comments that you made I got a little smile out of:
Yes I felt better just typing it in the post above. Mom always told me that God looked after fools, babies and drunks and you ain?t nursing any more Mike.
The other one is the one I got the biggest kick out of. Maybe no sleep would be lost but the $$$$$$ sure slide by real fast with the re-inspection fees and time lost going back and redoing the installation.
A couple of comments that you made I got a little smile out of:
Yes I felt better just typing it in the post above. Mom always told me that God looked after fools, babies and drunks and you ain?t nursing any more Mike.
The other one is the one I got the biggest kick out of. Maybe no sleep would be lost but the $$$$$$ sure slide by real fast with the re-inspection fees and time lost going back and redoing the installation.
- Location
- Windsor, CO NEC: 2017
- Occupation
- Hospital Master Electrician
Your stubborn and crazy. Ahhh I do feel better.jwelectric said:
Sure, hog all the feeling better.
Mike, I have yet to see a word from a box manufacturer, an NTRL, or anyone else backing up your claim that removing the clamps shipped with the pancake box constitutes a listing violation.
And regardless of the listing violation or not, the appropriate response would not be "well, you need to count the clamps whether they are there or not." It would be "you need to return the box to the state in which it complies with the listing."
I think those clamps stink anyway. They introduce sharp and pointy protrusions inside the box, which could damage the cable or conductors, IMO. If I have to use one of those boxes, I have always felt I have provided a safer, better installation by getting rid of the things. I hope everyone recognizes that this is just my personal opinion, and I don't look down on anyone for using them if they feel comfortable doing so.
Help me out here. Why does the following box exist? Why does the manufacturer make it?
If you look at the link by clicking on the picture, the manufacturer states to go look at 2002's 410.10.
In the 2008, it says the same thing, just moved to 410.20.
Do you think they make the boxes so that they can't sell them, because they are going to inevitably break 410.20? Or are they saying, "Take heed, this is a small box, keep an eye on 410.20 and install a fixture that doesn't break it."
I have a hard time believing they are making boxes they can't sell, because I've seen them for sale, I've bought them, they've been installed, and ultimately inspected, signed off, the homes lived in, and no one has died yet who lived to tell the tale.
So, educate me on how these events have transpired.
I. Scope and General
314.1 Scope.
This article covers the installation and use of all boxes and conduit bodies used as outlet, device, junction, or pull boxes, depending on their use, and handhole enclosures. Cast, sheet metal, nonmetallic, and other boxes such as FS, FD, and larger boxes are not classified as conduit bodies. This article also includes installation requirements for fittings used to join raceways and to connect raceways and cables to boxes and conduit bodies.
314.4 Metal Boxes.
Metal boxes shall be grounded and bonded in accordance with Parts I, IV, V, VI, VII, and X of Article 250 as applicable, except as permitted in 250.112(I).
I'm not sure that this section requires metal boxes be listed ( might make a good proposal for the next cycle)
Approved. Acceptable to the authority having jurisdiction.
This def is pretty clear.
90.4 Enforcement.
This Code is intended to be suitable for mandatory application by governmental bodies that exercise legal jurisdiction over electrical installations, including signaling and communications systems, and for use by insurance inspectors.
The authority having jurisdiction for enforcement of the Code has the responsibility for making interpretations of the rules, for deciding on the approval of equipment and materials, and for granting the special permission contemplated in a number of the rules.
Some localities do not adopt the NEC, but even in those localities, installations that comply with the current Code are prima facie evidence that the electrical installation is safe.
Section 90.4 advises that all materials and equipment used under the requirements of the Code are subject to the approval of the authority having jurisdiction. The text of 90.7, 110.2, and 110.3, along with the definitions of the terms approved, identified (as applied to equipment), labeled, and listed, is intended to provide a basis for the authority having jurisdiction to make the judgments that fall within that particular area of responsibility.
The phrase ?including signaling and communication systems? emphasizes that, indeed, these systems are also subject to enforcement.
The common sense suggested in this section is mind boggeling
HB exp note to 110.3(B)
In itself, 110.3 does not require listing or labeling of equipment. It does, however, require considerable evaluation of equipment. Section 110.2 requires that equipment be acceptable only if approved. The term approved is defined in Article 100 as acceptable to the authority having jurisdiction (AHJ). Before issuing approval, the authority having jurisdiction may require evidence of compliance with 110.3(A). The most common form of evidence considered acceptable by authorities having jurisdiction is a listing or labeling by a third party.
Some sections in the Code require listed or labeled equipment
Some sections !!
This has been an intersting discussion and I thisnk it amplifies the need for the code to be dynamic so AHJ and installers can achieve a safe installation. (free of shorts etc).
Does any one really believe that the removal of the clamos will burn the structure down?
I would rather they be removed to provide more space because the box is going to be used regardless.
314.1 Scope.
This article covers the installation and use of all boxes and conduit bodies used as outlet, device, junction, or pull boxes, depending on their use, and handhole enclosures. Cast, sheet metal, nonmetallic, and other boxes such as FS, FD, and larger boxes are not classified as conduit bodies. This article also includes installation requirements for fittings used to join raceways and to connect raceways and cables to boxes and conduit bodies.
314.4 Metal Boxes.
Metal boxes shall be grounded and bonded in accordance with Parts I, IV, V, VI, VII, and X of Article 250 as applicable, except as permitted in 250.112(I).
I'm not sure that this section requires metal boxes be listed ( might make a good proposal for the next cycle)
Approved. Acceptable to the authority having jurisdiction.
This def is pretty clear.
90.4 Enforcement.
This Code is intended to be suitable for mandatory application by governmental bodies that exercise legal jurisdiction over electrical installations, including signaling and communications systems, and for use by insurance inspectors.
The authority having jurisdiction for enforcement of the Code has the responsibility for making interpretations of the rules, for deciding on the approval of equipment and materials, and for granting the special permission contemplated in a number of the rules.
Some localities do not adopt the NEC, but even in those localities, installations that comply with the current Code are prima facie evidence that the electrical installation is safe.
Section 90.4 advises that all materials and equipment used under the requirements of the Code are subject to the approval of the authority having jurisdiction. The text of 90.7, 110.2, and 110.3, along with the definitions of the terms approved, identified (as applied to equipment), labeled, and listed, is intended to provide a basis for the authority having jurisdiction to make the judgments that fall within that particular area of responsibility.
The phrase ?including signaling and communication systems? emphasizes that, indeed, these systems are also subject to enforcement.
The common sense suggested in this section is mind boggeling
HB exp note to 110.3(B)
In itself, 110.3 does not require listing or labeling of equipment. It does, however, require considerable evaluation of equipment. Section 110.2 requires that equipment be acceptable only if approved. The term approved is defined in Article 100 as acceptable to the authority having jurisdiction (AHJ). Before issuing approval, the authority having jurisdiction may require evidence of compliance with 110.3(A). The most common form of evidence considered acceptable by authorities having jurisdiction is a listing or labeling by a third party.
Some sections in the Code require listed or labeled equipment
Some sections !!
This has been an intersting discussion and I thisnk it amplifies the need for the code to be dynamic so AHJ and installers can achieve a safe installation. (free of shorts etc).
Does any one really believe that the removal of the clamos will burn the structure down?
I would rather they be removed to provide more space because the box is going to be used regardless.
LarryFine
Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
- Location
- Henrico County, VA
- Occupation
- Electrical Contractor
Thank you, Dr. Seuss!
jwelectric
Senior Member
- Location
- North Carolina
And would not returning the clamps then mean that they would be counted?
I will give you that the White Book is worded differently than I thought but it does not change the fact that the push-in connector in the box posted by Scott would still count as one conductor.
I have several installations that come to mind that would be code compliant using one of those boxes.
The box contains the premises wires and the canopy contains the fixture wires. The canopy must afford enough space for the fixture wires and their connecting device is what 410.20 is addressing. It does not have one word concerning the premises wires. In order to use the space afforded by the canopy to give more cubit inches for the pancake box it would have to be marked with its cubit inches, see 314.16(A) and this marking would be required to be done by the manufacturer as outlined in 314.16(A)(1)
This is really cute and I really enjoyed it totally. It reminds me of the story of where did they bury the survivors.
On another forum the question was about hanging a chandelier from a 3.5 cubit inch box. The link to the box in question stated that the box was to be used with NM cable only. It also stated that the box has 4 cubit inches. I posted that it would be a violation of the NEC to do so and the conversation grew into something similar to this discussion.
The debate turned into whether the strap for the fixture counted as box fills or not.
I posted 314.16(B)(4) and everyone went wild with explanations of what this section was intended to address instead of anyone explaining the section as it is written.
Many have tried to say that the strap must be inside the area of the box and some says that the strap must be holding something that is inside the box but don?t give a code reference to back their statement. Not even one word from a proposal has been posted that would confirm these statements.
It does not say that anything is required to be in the box in 314.16(B)(4) anywhere. It simply says that a strap or yoke that is holding a piece of equipment and a fixture fits the definition of equipment.
?Common sense? tells us that the strap holding an electrical lighting fixture in place with or without a canopy the strap is in the middle of current carrying conductors. These conductors are producing heat and the metal strap by its nature will conduct and retain this heat.
If we should go by your theory that the canopy adds cubit inches to the box for conductor fill then the strap would definitely be inside the cubit inch fill of the box thus taking away the argument that the strap is not in the box.
If this pancake box is being used to hang a multi lampholder chandelier then a strap that has a thread tube screwed into it which the fixture wires are passing through would have electrical equipment that is internal to the strap and this piece of equipment would extend inside the box. Now the strap fits the first part of 314.16(B)(4)
My questions are simple to answer for the great minds of this forum.
Could someone show me verbiage that states that the strap is required to be on the inside of the box in order to count for conductor fill?
Can someone show me verbiage that states that a piece of electrical equipment such as a light fixture that is supported by a bar is exempted from conductor fill?
I can and have showed verbiage where the strap counts as a double volume if it supports electrical equipment and by definition a light fixture is a piece of electrical equipment.
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