Dual energy generation with magnetic seesaw system and gravity

[ggunn]

With just the right length and weight handle some old fashioned ratchet bumper jacks would keep pumping themselves. Unfortunately only on the way down. :angel:

Been there, done that, got whacked in the hand trying to stop it. The jack bumped and descended faster and faster until the jack handle exited the jack at a high rate of speed and ended up in a neighbor's yard.

I hate bumper jacks. Scissor jacks, too. Both are very dangerous. I hate "donut" spare tires, too, while we are at it. My wife and I both carry small hydraulic floor jacks and full sized spares.

And don't use those aerosol cans of flat fixer if you expect the tire to be repaired.

 

[kwired]

Same here. 9 years old, science fair project. I came up with the idea of using a battery to run my Erector Set motor, then belt it to another one as a generator to make electricity, then feed that to the first one to power it and remove the battery. My dad said "Sure, try it and see what happens, then tell me what it was and why." I got my first lesson in efficiency of power transfer and ultimately, to the first law of thermodynamics. I actually made the failure, and explanation of it, into the science fair project, got 3rd place.

For a 9 year old to do that and only get third place - you must have had some really tough competition, or not so educated judges.

 

[Jraef]

For a 9 year old to do that and only get third place - you must have had some really tough competition, or not so educated judges.

I don't think it was the competition. The winner was a girl who made a volcano from paper mâché and had lava spewing by using vinegar and baking soda. I forget what got 2nd, something to do with plants I think. My Dad said it was because the judges didn't fully understand what I was saying themselves. I now think they probably thought my Dad did the whole thing (they knew he was an ME) because they quizzed me pretty hard during the judging, more than they did for the others. I knew my stuff because that's how Dad wanted me to learn things, that's probably why I got anything. But as I looked back years later when my kids were doing science fairs, I saw the scrutiny the judges used when trying to root out the over zealous parental involvement.

 

[Jraef]

Been there, done that, got whacked in the hand trying to stop it. ...

Only the hand? Lucky... I got it right in the mouth, pushed my lip into my teeth and right through. Still have the scar under my beard.

But as said earlier, it's something you only need to experience once!

 

[ggunn]

Only the hand? Lucky... I got it right in the mouth, pushed my lip into my teeth and right through. Still have the scar under my beard.

In that incident, yes, I was lucky, but if you'll notice, two other occurrences of mine involved my... more sensitive area.

 

[vikram_gupta11]

Look up the First Law of Thermodynamics. Energy cannot be created or destroyed, only transferred. As the others have been pointing out, in your scenario there is no input of energy, ergo there can be no extraction of energy.

One glaring flaw that I see in your thinking is that you appear to believe that these strong magnets, once made to move, can both supply kinetic energy to maintain their movement AND pass through coils to generate electricity. It's a common mistake made by people trying to come up with these kinds of miracle machines. The reality you are missing is that in the act of passing the magnets through the coils, the creation of current flow then exerts a counter electromotive force against the magnets. So even if you get the magnets to contribute to their own movement, you cannot ALSO extract energy from them for free. Either, or, not both.

In this sketch you will find that I have attached 10 shake flashlights on the both side of a balanced seesaw system and this seesaw is moving with 3 to 6 volt toy motor but I have used 10 no. shake flashlights and each flashlight will produce only 2 volt as a output which will be less than input . On the first hand each flashlight is producing only 2 volt and on the second hand the total 10 no. flashlights systems are producing 20 volt . If we try this concept than input is more than output but if we add total output then it is greater than input.

please answer me that will these flashlights will be light up or not as mass is not an issue in this device.
Note(1)each flashlight is separate with another flashlight .
(2)to move a balanced seesaw there is need of less energy or input
uppose we are using only 3 to 6 volt motor to press the seesaw system and I have attached a crankshaft with seesaw system and a motor to convert motor's rotatory motion in to linear motion .Now motor is pressing the seesaw system and due to this, flashlights are also shaking but we are using only 3 volt as a input to light up these 20 no. flashlights (also include another arm of seesaw ).
for an example I have used 10 no. coil+ magnet and each coil+ magnet system will produce only 2 volt as a output ,which will be less than input and on the first hand each magnet+ coil system is producing only 2 volt and on the second hand the total 10 no. magnet+ coil systems are producing 20 volt . If we try this concept than input is more than output but if we add total output then it is greater than input.

Further more if I connect a motor with exhaust fan with each coil+magnet then these total 10 no. fan will work to pass the air through a blow pipe and this exhaust air will work to run a 10 volt motor again .In this way can we get more output than input.

In this case as far as I think I'm not violating any thermodynamics laws as we are getting less output than input with each coil+magnet system. But total 10 no. magnet +coil systems are producing 10 volt as a output and no reverse magnetism work in this system also due to more input than output.we are using only a 3 volt toy motor and this motor will run only with AA size battery.suppose one flash light is generating 1.5 volt and 1 amp so the electricity will be or power will be using P=VI(1.5*1=1.5 watt) and we can generate 1.5 watt power with each flashlight but I have attached 10 or 20 or 30 flash lights on the seesaw system and this seesaw is moving or turning with the help of only 2 to 4 no. AA size battery.If we are getting 1.5 watt with each flashlight then can we use this current to run a 1.5 watt motor and in this way can we run or move attached no. fans which are 10 ,20 or 30 or more and again gathering the exhaust of these total fans through a blower to run a powerful turbine than a 3 volt toy motor.

Note(1) the total exhaust gathered from these fans can easily run a small wind turbine which output will be greater than 3 or 4 AA size batteries.
(2) There is no issue of mass in this design and friction is very very less so there is no problem of inertia.

 

[Sahib]

Please first explain how your invention is beneficial to humanity.

 

[Jraef]

... as mass is not an issue in this device. ...

That right there is the flaw in your thinking that is the basis of the flaw in your entire scheme. How can mass NOT be an issue? SOMETHING has to move that mass in order to facilitate it being able to be used to generate power. The ENTIRE POINT of our objections to your hypothesis is that the energy required to move that mass will ALWAYS be more than the energy you can extract from it.

ALWAYS.

You are simply ignoring this fact in order to further your belief. You might see that work in politics and religion, but that has no place in science.

 

[GoldDigger]

You appear to be convinced that the output power of an electrical device depends only on the voltage.

this seesaw is moving with 3 to 6 volt toy motor but I have used 10 no. shake flashlights and each flashlight will produce only 2 volt as a output which will be less than input . On the first hand each flashlight is producing only 2 volt and on the second hand the total 10 no. flashlights systems are producing 20 volt .

What is a valid measure of the input power is the product of the voltage and current input to the toy motor, not just the voltage.
And the valid measure of the output power is the product of output voltage and output current times the number of flashlights.

If you have the shake flashlights turned on, the input power required from the toy motor may be greater than if you just measure the voltage with the lights turned off. It certainly will be is the output power is anywhere close in magnitude to the input power.

 

[kwired]

In this sketch you will find that I have attached 10 shake flashlights on the both side of a balanced seesaw system and this seesaw is moving with 3 to 6 volt toy motor but I have used 10 no. shake flashlights and each flashlight will produce only 2 volt as a output which will be less than input . On the first hand each flashlight is producing only 2 volt and on the second hand the total 10 no. flashlights systems are producing 20 volt . If we try this concept than input is more than output but if we add total output then it is greater than input.

please answer me that will these flashlights will be light up or not as mass is not an issue in this device.
Note(1)each flashlight is separate with another flashlight .
(2)to move a balanced seesaw there is need of less energy or input
uppose we are using only 3 to 6 volt motor to press the seesaw system and I have attached a crankshaft with seesaw system and a motor to convert motor's rotatory motion in to linear motion .Now motor is pressing the seesaw system and due to this, flashlights are also shaking but we are using only 3 volt as a input to light up these 20 no. flashlights (also include another arm of seesaw ).
for an example I have used 10 no. coil+ magnet and each coil+ magnet system will produce only 2 volt as a output ,which will be less than input and on the first hand each magnet+ coil system is producing only 2 volt and on the second hand the total 10 no. magnet+ coil systems are producing 20 volt . If we try this concept than input is more than output but if we add total output then it is greater than input.

Further more if I connect a motor with exhaust fan with each coil+magnet then these total 10 no. fan will work to pass the air through a blow pipe and this exhaust air will work to run a 10 volt motor again .In this way can we get more output than input.

In this case as far as I think I'm not violating any thermodynamics laws as we are getting less output than input with each coil+magnet system. But total 10 no. magnet +coil systems are producing 10 volt as a output and no reverse magnetism work in this system also due to more input than output.we are using only a 3 volt toy motor and this motor will run only with AA size battery.suppose one flash light is generating 1.5 volt and 1 amp so the electricity will be or power will be using P=VI(1.5*1=1.5 watt) and we can generate 1.5 watt power with each flashlight but I have attached 10 or 20 or 30 flash lights on the seesaw system and this seesaw is moving or turning with the help of only 2 to 4 no. AA size battery.If we are getting 1.5 watt with each flashlight then can we use this current to run a 1.5 watt motor and in this way can we run or move attached no. fans which are 10 ,20 or 30 or more and again gathering the exhaust of these total fans through a blower to run a powerful turbine than a 3 volt toy motor.

Note(1) the total exhaust gathered from these fans can easily run a small wind turbine which output will be greater than 3 or 4 AA size batteries.
(2) There is no issue of mass in this design and friction is very very less so there is no problem of inertia.

did you build it and get the anticipated performance or did you just design it thinking it will work?


Your sea saw is balanced mass wise, but once you put load on the generator you have an increased resistance to movement requiring more mass on the high side each 1/2 cycle to keep it moving, how do you keep up with that without spending more energy then you develop?

 

[JFletcher]

There is no issue of mass in this design and friction is very very less so there is no problem of inertia.

At this point, this thread has grown from interesting to painful to read. Painful like watching a tsunami clip yesterday on Youtube, in a country that has seen countless city-wiping tsunami in the past 100 years, and the locals were still ignorant of the phenomena. Seriously, I was almost screaming at the monitor saying "The tide has pulled out 200m in 10 minutes, where do you think all that water is going, and why? GTFO of there!!!". To no avail.

There is mechanical friction in every system. Even if it werent mechanical, you still have electrical friction (resistance) due to the materials you have at hand.

Mass is ALWAYS an issue. Why are airplanes aluminum? Because if they were steel they wouldnt fly (or require ridiculously large engines). Why are racecars light? Because an extra 200lbs of weight would kill the brakes and tires when cornering. Why are turbine blades made of titanium and balanced to ridiculously tight tolerances? Because any imbalance or extra mass would cause it to self-destruct (and down your steel bodied aircraft). I once read that every additional pound of weight NASA had to send into space cost around $10,000.

Any time something changes direction (like a crankshaft), it imparts force on its surroundings (like bearings). No matter if you think it's inconsequential, that is energy LOST from your system. Even the simplest of systems are not immune to this. Friction is there, no matter if there is immeasurable heat transfer.

Ever hear of Newton's Cradle? Tell me why it stops, even in a zero gravity vacuum.


At this point, I'd be happier to find out you are trolling us than still serious. As I wrote before, I DO admire your dedication, however, there is nothing more you'll gain here.

 

[ggunn]

Further more if I connect a motor with exhaust fan with each coil+magnet then these total 10 no. fan will work to pass the air through a blow pipe and this exhaust air will work to run a 10 volt motor again .In this way can we get more output than input.

No, no, no. You cannot use a fan to blow air over a turbine and harvest more energy from the turbine than it takes to run the fan. Maybe in Fantasyland or on the Bizarro World, but not here in the real world.

I don't mean to sound harsh, but this whole scheme is based in ignorance and naivety. Maybe I have a closed mind from my technical degrees and experience, but if your mind is too open your brains will fall out.

 

[JFletcher]

No, no, no. You cannot use a fan to blow air over a turbine and harvest more energy from the turbine than it takes to run the fan. Maybe in Fantasyland or on the Bizarro World, but not here in the real world.

I don't mean to sound harsh, but this whole scheme is based in ignorance and naivety. Maybe I have a closed mind from my technical degrees and experience, but if your mind is too open your brains will fall out.

Shhh... I'm working on powering our next generation of aircraft carriers with LEGO motors and fans. They'll be able to do 280 knots from a single AA battery. All I have to do is put a generator on the prop shafts... TOP SECRET, dont tell anyone. :angel:

Seasickness pills not included.

 

[GoldDigger]

So far all calculations that show greater output power than input power have, on close inspection, shown one or more of three types of errors:

1. Incorrectly calculating input or output power.
2. Failing to account properly for all energy loss mechanisms.
3. Failing to recognize an unaccounted energy input mechanism.

If it seems like you should be getting more power out than you are putting in, you do not properly understand the system yet.
Actually building it will usually show that the estimate was wrong, even if it does not pinpoint the nature of the error.

"The simple]y constructed model does not work because of friction. All I have to do is reduce the friction to zero and then lower it even more and it will be fine.":angel:

 

[K8MHZ]

We all may seem like a bunch of pessimists, but consider that most pessimists are really optimists with experience.

 

[ptonsparky]

I'm a bit slower than most but I've been waiting for a funding request since about post 3.

 

[drcampbell]

In this sketch you will find that I have attached 10 shake flashlights on the both side of a balanced seesaw system ...
please answer me ...

You have received a pretty clear answer, which you reject. It's time to stop asking the Internet for opinions and build a prototype. A picture's worth a thousand words and a working model's worth a whole lot more than that.

 

[mgookin]

The guy could run a transformer with greater efficiency if he wants 3V in and 20V out.
Instead of losing 25% maybe he'll lose 8%.

 

[Sahib]

The OP proposed to use rare earth element magnets in his invention and that would lead to compactness. My thought is whether his may be converted to any commercial type toy for children entertainment.........

Please first explain how your invention is beneficial to humanity.

 

[vikram_gupta11]

The OP proposed to use rare earth element magnets in his invention and that would lead to compactness. My thought is whether his may be converted to any commercial type toy for children entertainment.........

Dear All Great minds,

Thanks for your interest.
I did some experiment and after that I post this Idea .
I used 6 balls (toy ball which light up due to pressure) and attach these balls with both Arms of seesaw system .when I applied a force on this seesaw then the balls glowed up and So I think that we can use coil+magnet system and it will also work.
I also tested mass issue that so I put 3 kilogram weight on each arm but it didn't effect the whole system and balls again glowed up with same force that I applied before attaching the weight.
Now I want to tell that I used just a very little force only using my finger tips and this system did well what I was expecting.

Now in this design we are shaking 10 no. flashlights with the force of equal to shake a single flashlight(COIL+MAGNET) and these flashlight will work or glow up there is no doubt about it. we can take not only 10 no. flashlight but also 20,30,50 or more because remember the seesaw is in balanced position so again say that there is need of only small amount of energy to move it and also consider that this seesaw is just moving only 2 to 3 centimeter sideways so this is also an advantage .
Friction is very less,applying force is same as we are shaking 10 no. flashlights with the force of shaking a single flashlight.sideways momentum is only 2 to 3 centimeter then why this should not work?

There may be friction loss but it will be negligible and there will be no effect on the entire system due to this loss.
So my earnest request to all of great folks that reconsider about this design.