Hard-wiring dishwasher

[wireman3736]

I have not wired a dishwasher in many years, when I did the most common method was direct connection with NM.

You feel this is not quality, that is certainly your right but I have to ask what you see happening to this?

There are literally tens of thousands of DW direct wired with NM.

The NM is not 'exposed' it is enclosed under the DW with all the single conductor wiring the manufacturer has under the DW.

I have never seen the NM get damaged.

Now all that aside if I was to wire one again I would probably go the cord and plug route, I never liked laying on my belly wiring a DW.

I like the idea of turning it over and installing the cord while standing up.

I don't disagree that hard wire is as good a quality all I'm saying is IMO your giving the customer more flexibility in the future, I remember stoves and dryers being hard wired quite often years ago, maybe some old timers still prefer that.

 

[wireman3736]

Good for you.

Thank you

 

[celtic]

...all I'm saying is IMO your giving the customer more flexibility in the future.....

I don't "give" anything away...you get exactly what you are paying for....like I said...

... if the HO wanted to pay extra ...I would more than happy to give them a number

They are always "free" to call me(or someone else) to rewire a new DW.

The HO is given the option, upfront, during the walk-through.

 

[Jim W in Tampa]

Hardwire or cord connect ? Both are code compliant......I pushed for cord connection in a production enviorment,why ?
#1-Most of the time we were in before the plumbers so a receptacle allowed us to get a final inspection.
#2-If the appliance was there all we had to do was attach a pigtail and move on.
#3-No breaker lock out is needed.
#4-If hardwired we had to tie up a service crew to hook up the NM

It became policy to just leave an appliance cord with a connector and wire nuts if the d/w or disp. was not on site.OK plumbers are not electricians,but they in day to day activities unhook and hook up these units time and time again.As far as quality goes IMO feel it is a better job to cord connect for safety and convience.

On a side note I found that when using a receptacle it is best to install a box horizontal on the base plate and off centered in the space toward the left side of the opening.That way if the appliance is installed without the cord,it is easy to install the cord and slide your hand in and access the receptacle.

Lets go to disposals.Many now come with a cord connected from the factory.So even the manufacturers see that cord connection is becoming popular.I pushed this cord connection issue about 5/6 years ago and over time it was found that many man hours and unnecessary trips were saved by doing it this way.
Tract homes are a low profit business.If you can save a few bucks over a period of time you can keep the bottom line as high as you can.

If plumber has not been there yet then how do you handle the water heater ?

 

[mdshunk]

If plumber has not been there yet then how do you handle the water heater ?

I know that I hang my disconnect and let a piece of MC cable with connectors hang around the disconnect. Sometimes, the water heater magically gets hooked up. Sometimes not.

 

[Jim W in Tampa]

I know that I hang my disconnect and let a piece of MC cable with connectors hang around the disconnect. Sometimes, the water heater magically gets hooked up. Sometimes not.

So what your doing is allowing an unlicensed man to wire it for you.Is that a smart move ? Who will check to see its been done right before calling inspection.

 

[wireman3736]

I don't "give" anything away...you get exactly what you are paying for....like I said...


who said I was giving anything away.

 

[Jim W in Tampa]

I don't "give" anything away...you get exactly what you are paying for....like I said...


who said I was giving anything away.

Most of have a contracted price for wiring the home.How much material you use is up to you.Your bottom line after material is your money.Unless it will cost me extra trip i am saving the receptacle,box and cord.You should be charging for an extra trip if house wasnt 100 % ready to trim.So imo you are giving it away.Profits are very low on track homes ,that why i stopped doing them.

 

[mdshunk]

So what your doing is allowing an unlicensed man to wire it for you.Is that a smart move ? Who will check to see its been done right before calling inspection.

I didn't allow anything. I only left the material. If someone else hooked it up, shame on that guy. That was really bad of him to use my material like that.

 

[wireman3736]

I don't understand your logic, If you give a price for a job you have that figured in, You and celtic have my curiosity now, are you the guy's that still hard wire stoves and dryers to save the cost of the box, receptacle and cord?

 

[Jim W in Tampa]

I didn't allow anything. I only left the material. If someone else hooked it up, shame on that guy. That was really bad of him to use my material like that.

Hope they are doing it right because no judge would ever believe you if something goes wrong.LOL
Not saying i never allowed the same to happen but we both know its wrong.

 

[Jim W in Tampa]

I don't understand your logic, If you give a price for a job you have that figured in, You and celtic have my curiosity now, are you the guy's that still hard wire stoves and dryers to save the cost of the box, receptacle and cord?

The logic is that now that your price is set its up to you to increase profits wherever you can.It might offset something you missed.If you priced romex out at xxx supply for $98 and bid with that price in mind and find it on sale at big orange for $75 will you still buy it from xxx ?As far as dryers or ovens i charge extra if i putting cords on them.

 

[tallgirl]

Most of have a contracted price for wiring the home.How much material you use is up to you.Your bottom line after material is your money.Unless it will cost me extra trip i am saving the receptacle,box and cord.You should be charging for an extra trip if house wasnt 100 % ready to trim.So imo you are giving it away.Profits are very low on track homes ,that why i stopped doing them.

I have the list of contractors who worked on my house. I've written a few times about the problems I've found over the 7 years I've lived in it. Many of the contractors I'd use if I needed work and they did service or whatever work. But the electrical contractor? No way. There are thousands of dollars in work I'd like to have done -- back yard lighting, hot tub hookup, several new 20A BCs for the bedrooms for computers (I build big computers -- big enough to run this entire website -- for my house), and if I can get the front yard landscaping where I want it, probably some of that as well.

I used to have an auto mechanic who worked on my '79 Chevy. Really nice guy. But I got tired of having to beg him to fix things (he was always talking about how much money he was saving me -- sounds a bit like the way you talk about saving money), and it wasn't like I wasn't paying him a lot of money -- about $25K over the last 8 years. The car needs another $12K in work, much of it very high profit margin (paint, carpet, sound), to get it to where I want it. A different shop will get that money instead, and he won't get recommendations from me.

 

[Jim W in Tampa]

I have the list of contractors who worked on my house. I've written a few times about the problems I've found over the 7 years I've lived in it. Many of the contractors I'd use if I needed work and they did service or whatever work. But the electrical contractor? No way. There are thousands of dollars in work I'd like to have done -- back yard lighting, hot tub hookup, several new 20A BCs for the bedrooms for computers (I build big computers -- big enough to run this entire website -- for my house), and if I can get the front yard landscaping where I want it, probably some of that as well.

I used to have an auto mechanic who worked on my '79 Chevy. Really nice guy. But I got tired of having to beg him to fix things (he was always talking about how much money he was saving me -- sounds a bit like the way you talk about saving money), and it wasn't like I wasn't paying him a lot of money -- about $25K over the last 8 years. The car needs another $12K in work, much of it very high profit margin (paint, carpet, sound), to get it to where I want it. A different shop will get that money instead, and he won't get recommendations from me.

I will assume you have not contracted to wire any track homes.They get cheap because thats the only way to get the bid.Given a custom home i often overwire it and sell extras but the money is there.Here only big companies can do track homes.They buy in volume and hire mostly cheap helpers to do the work with perhaps 1 journeyman at best to run it.It was not like that 15 to 20 years ago.Ask Allen W how low the profit is where he is working.I glady suggest upgrades to customers willing to pay for them.Company i am with started out doing homes and commercial.We only do commercial now because its a much higher profit.
Have got to ask why you would not just do your own electrical ?From your posts it seems you are plenty qualified.

 

[wireman3736]

The logic is that now that your price is set its up to you to increase profits wherever you can.It might offset something you missed.If you priced romex out at xxx supply for $98 and bid with that price in mind and find it on sale at big orange for $75 will you still buy it from xxx ?As far as dryers or ovens i charge extra if i putting cords on them.

I understand where your coming from. I could have done allot of condo work up around the ski areas but the jobs are done really on the cheap just to meet code, in and out and most of those guy's don't ever plan on getting called back. I have tried to build my business by having a good relationship with the owners and tend to get allot of referrals, this is what works for me. as long as I can make my profit margin on a job I'm happy, If I can save some money by cutting costs and it doesn't effect the quality of work that I expect from myself then so be it. I wouldn't lose sleep over a box, receptacle and cord.

 

[tallgirl]

I will assume you have not contracted to wire any track homes.They get cheap because thats the only way to get the bid.Given a custom home i often overwire it and sell extras but the money is there.Here only big companies can do track homes.They buy in volume and hire mostly cheap helpers to do the work with perhaps 1 journeyman at best to run it.It was not like that 15 to 20 years ago.Ask Allen W how low the profit is where he is working.I glady suggest upgrades to customers willing to pay for them.Company i am with started out doing homes and commercial.We only do commercial now because its a much higher profit.
Have got to ask why you would not just do your own electrical ?From your posts it seems you are plenty qualified.

My family built full-custom houses for years, so yes, I know that competing for tract (note the correct spelling) home bids is cut-throat. Try explaining to someone why they need to hire you (full-custom GC) and not get something from Tract Homes du Jour. Still, that electrical contractor's name is on the work and their reputation is cr@p as far as I'm concerned.

Upgrades. Well, I'm talking about upgrades.

"27-NS ADD (2) 3-WAY SWITCHES AT M/BDRM TO CONTROL (4) ADDED FLOODLIGHTS, (2) EACH AT FRONT AND REAR CORDERS OF HOUSE, SEE OPT# 32-118."

"28-NS ADD 230v 50amp OUTLET AT M/BATH TUB EXTERIOR REAR WALL PER RENDERING."

The 230v 50A outlet was run with #8. It has a 50A 2P breaker, though. That has to count for something. I leave it turned off. Makes me feel better that way

The 8 total 150w maximum (per rating on fixture) floods share a circuit down my bedroom wall (2 duplex receptacles) and into the bath, where they then serve 6 x 40w bulbs. I believe the ceiling fan is on that same circuit -- 4 x 75w medium base candelabra bulbs. VD is 7 volts, FWIW -- 124v to 117v. It was worse when I put 100w bulbs in the floodlamps.

Why don't I fix it myself? Because I have better things to do with my time than climb around my attic, and because some of the things that I think need to be fixed require a lot more skill than I have. The one that I know for sure -- the 8/2 from the main panel to the back yard -- is definitely wrong. If the house weren't finished it wouldn't be a problem for me to replace those wires, but as it is, the house is done. And the #2 CU between the meter and panel smells of being the wrong size (60A 2P to house subpanel, 40A 2P to A/C and the dreaded 50A 2P to the spa), but I'm not sure and I'm not about to replace it myself anyway.

 

[cpal]

It's up to the mfg.



UL Standard UL-749
UL 749
Household Dishwashers

7.3 Installation instructions

7.3.1A Where the installation instructions for a built-in dishwasher specifies
that the appliance is able to be connected by means of a power-supply cord
not already attached to the appliance by the manufacturer, the instructions
shall specify that a power-supply cord kit marked for use with dishwashers
shall be used. The cord kit shall comply wi th Clause 25.2A. The part or model
number of the power-supply cord kit shall be included in the appliance
installation instructions.
7.3.2 The installation instructions provided with a cord-connected undercounter appliance shall include
the following instructions or equivalent information:
a) the power-supply receptacle for the appliance shall be installed in a cabinet or on a wall
adjacent to the undercounter space in which the appliance is to be installed;
b) there shall be an opening through the partition between the compartments specified in (a) that
is large enough for the attachment plug to pass through. The longest dimension of the opening
shall not be more than 38 mm;
c) the edges of the opening specified in (b) shall, if the partition is wood, be smooth and rounded,
or, if the partition is metal, be covered with an edge protector provided for this purpose b y the
manufacturer; and
d) care shall be exercised, when the appliance is installed or removed, to reduce the likelihood of
damage to the power-supply cord.

25.2 Cord-connected appliances
25.2.1 The power-supply cord of an appliance provided with a means for grounding shall include an
equipment-bonding conductor and shall terminate in a grounding-type attachment plug.

25.2.4 For a cord-connected built-in appliance:
a) the flexible cord shall be Type S, SJT, SPT-3, or the equivalent; and
b) the length of the flexible cord shall be 0.9 ? 1.2 m, measured from the face of the
attachment plug to the plane of the rear of the appliance.

25.2.5 The power-supply cord shall be attached permanently to the
appliance or shall be in the form of a separate cord supplied as part of a
power-supply cord kit with means for connection to the appliance. The
power-supply cord kit shall comply with Clause 25.2A.
25.2.6 The ampacity of the cord and the current rating of the fittings shall not be less than the current
rating of the appliance.
For an appliance rated more than 15 A, the current rating of the attachment plug shall not be less than
125% of the current rating of the appliance.
A 20 A plug shall be acceptable for an appliance rated not more than 4000 W at 240 V. The attachment
plug shall be acceptable for use at a voltage equal to the rated voltage of the appliance.
.

25.2A Power-supply cord kits for use with undercounter or built-in
dishwashers
25.2A.1 A power-supply cord kit intended for the installation of an
undercounter or built-in dishwasher shall include the following:
a) power-supp ly cord, strain-relief means, and push-back relief that complies
with Clause 25.2;
b) a part or model number marked on the power-supply cord kit package, or
in the kit installation instructions;
c) installation instructions; and
d) grounding instructions in accordance with Clause 7.2.2.4(a).

 

[celtic]

I don't understand your logic, If you give a price for a job you have that figured in, You and celtic have my curiosity now, are you the guy's that still hard wire stoves and dryers to save the cost of the box, receptacle and cord?

....and the callback to replace the appliance.

It's basic business.
They have a choice during the negotiation phase...hardwired or cord and plug.
If they chose hardwired, I know someone will be called to make the swap - aka, charge a fee. They have opted for the cheaper cost upfront and will pay at a later date.

If they chose cord and plug, they will not need to call in the future for this service. They have paid upfront for that convinience.

You can pay me now, or pay me (or some other EC) later...either way NOTHING is "given away to allow the customer more flexibility in the future ". No money is left "on the table".
If that is your logic, why not run every device as a homerun, or run 1" EMT to every location back home - now that's some flexibility!

Why would I even be concerned what happens down the road?

 

[wireman3736]

....and the callback to replace the appliance.

It's basic business.
They have a choice during the negotiation phase...hardwired or cord and plug.
If they chose hardwired, I know someone will be called to make the swap - aka, charge a fee. They have opted for the cheaper cost upfront and will pay at a later date.

If they chose cord and plug, they will not need to call in the future for this service. They have paid upfront for that convinience.

You can pay me now, or pay me (or some other EC) later...either way NOTHING is "given away to allow the customer more flexibility in the future ". No money is left "on the table".
If that is your logic, why not run every device as a homerun, or run 1" EMT to every location back home - now that's some flexibility!

Why would I even be concerned what happens down the road?

So was the answer to the actual question I asked yes that you hard wire stoves and dryers,

 

[Jim W in Tampa]

Stoves and dryers often go with the sellers so i would not hard wire them.DW almost always will be part of the home.DW and water heaters are about equal with being fixed as part of home.So if your saying DW needs cord then why not WH ?
Put the blame for cheap systems on the GC.They are the ones that wanted cheap and to me they are the customer not the people that buy the house.You get what you pay for.Many will not even give you phone and cable in all the bedrooms.Is that the EC fault too ? You bought an escort not a lincoln cont..

Before buying you should have looked or hired a HI to go over details of what you got.The electrician was hired to wire to min. nec code.When you want more then spec it into the bid.