Is this allowed?

jxofaltrds

Senior Member
Location
Mike P. Columbus Ohio
Occupation
ESI
I am looking at this picture and have never seen this performed.

Note the multi wire feed + an addition circuit.

Doesn't look right but I can think of a violation.

I do not know if the additional 'black' is from a three wire or not.

This is a internet posted pic.

DSC06209.jpg
 

LEO2854

Esteemed Member
Location
Ma
I am looking at this picture and have never seen this performed.

Note the multi wire feed + an addition circuit.

Doesn't look right but I can think of a violation.

I do not know if the additional 'black' is from a three wire or not.

This is a internet posted pic.

View attachment 9549
It depends on whether or not the breaker terminal is rated for two conductors,otherwise it's a violation of 110.3.
 

GoldDigger

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Placerville, CA, USA
Occupation
Retired PV System Designer
I am looking at this picture and have never seen this performed.

Note the multi wire feed + an addition circuit.

Doesn't look right but I can think of a violation.

I do not know if the additional 'black' is from a three wire or not.
The handle tie (functional?) indicates to me that the two breakers feed an MWBC. If the same neutral feeds all three of the wires, and the two black wires together are treated as part of the same MWBC, just going in two different directions, then there may not be a violation there. You can separate an MWBC into to (or more) separate circuits downstream just by branching the neutral. Under current code there may be an issue with the wires of the MWBC being grouped for identification within the panel.
 

david

Senior Member
Location
Pennsylvania
since the breaker is labeled kitchen/ dishwasher & refrigerator, I am wondering if this is kitchen receptacles or kitchen lights. If the breaker marked kitchen/dishwasher is in fact kitchen receptacles / dishwasher than this is a small appliance circuit and the dishwasher cannot be on the same breaker with the kitchen receptacles.
 

macmikeman

Senior Member
Outside of what David said and rightfully so, those square d breakers are listed for two conductors. However as stated d.w. cannot be on same breaker as kitchen small appliance receptacle outlet circuit. (two wires hooked together under the same SQ-D breaker is only one circuit)
 

templdl

Senior Member
Location
Wisconsin
Outside of what David said and rightfully so, those square d breakers are listed for two conductors. However as stated d.w. cannot be on same breaker as kitchen small appliance receptacle outlet circuit. (two wires hooked together under the same SQ-D breaker is only one circuit)
I see the 85? and sunny. What are you trying to do rub it in? Right now it's -4? here on its way down to -10?. And to add to that the packers lost.
 

Rick Christopherson

Senior Member
This is a internet posted pic.
This is a high resolution picture that you can zoom in on it quite a bit. It isn't what it appears. The refrigerator is on the first breaker. The dishwasher is on the second breaker (alone). The kitchen A is on the 3rd breaker, and the red wire is on the 4th breaker, which is only partially visible.

When you zoom in, notice how the first two wires are visible above the plastic molding of the breaker terminal, but the third wire is not above this same piece. That's because it is on a different breaker.
 

Smart $

Esteemed Member
Location
Ohio
... It isn't what it appears. The refrigerator is on the first breaker. The dishwasher is on the second breaker (alone). The kitchen A is on the 3rd breaker, and the red wire is on the 4th breaker, which is only partially visible. ...
I agree, except spaces 6 and 8 are occupied by a 2P breaker. ;)
 

jxofaltrds

Senior Member
Location
Mike P. Columbus Ohio
Occupation
ESI
This is a high resolution picture that you can zoom in on it quite a bit. It isn't what it appears. The refrigerator is on the first breaker. The dishwasher is on the second breaker (alone). The kitchen A is on the 3rd breaker, and the red wire is on the 4th breaker, which is only partially visible.

When you zoom in, notice how the first two wires are visible above the plastic molding of the breaker terminal, but the third wire is not above this same piece. That's because it is on a different breaker.
I agree, except spaces 6 and 8 are occupied by a 2P breaker. ;)
I need better glasses. TY:slaphead:
 

Dennis Alwon

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Chapel Hill, NC
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
Are the lugs rated for 2 wires on the neutral bar? It appears there are multiple equipment grounding conductor under one screw.
 

mwm1752

Senior Member
Location
Aspen, Colo
Most ground busses will let you connect more than 1 grounding conductor but limit you to 1 grounded conductor under individual lugs( manufacture instructions wouls validate). Looks like circuits 2 & 4 are proper & 6 & 8 are isolated to a 2 pole breaker -- no violation seen with limited info
 

Dennis Alwon

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Chapel Hill, NC
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
Most ground busses will let you connect more than 1 grounding conductor but limit you to 1 grounded conductor under individual lugs( manufacture instructions wouls validate). Looks like circuits 2 & 4 are proper & 6 & 8 are isolated to a 2 pole breaker -- no violation seen with limited info

That is true with newer panel but not necessarily with older ones
 

mwm1752

Senior Member
Location
Aspen, Colo
That is true with newer panel but not necessarily with older ones
I'm pretty sure Sq D Grd buss have allowed it for at least 25 years -- to long ago to remember the precise moment that tibit fact was learned, sometimes 24 hrs can be difficult - I would be thinking Zinsco or FPE would be in the catagory of older types
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
that has been my signature line here for a number of years now. I leave it up all year..
It is seldom wrong, especially when comparing the accuracy to single digits or even negative numbers.

Are the lugs rated for 2 wires on the neutral bar? It appears there are multiple equipment grounding conductor under one screw.
That is true with newer panel but not necessarily with older ones
All Square D panels of the vintage using that style of main have had ground/neutral bus bars rated for more than one conductor, and it has been around for at least 25-30 years now.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
This is a high resolution picture that you can zoom in on it quite a bit. It isn't what it appears. The refrigerator is on the first breaker. The dishwasher is on the second breaker (alone). The kitchen A is on the 3rd breaker, and the red wire is on the 4th breaker, which is only partially visible.

When you zoom in, notice how the first two wires are visible above the plastic molding of the breaker terminal, but the third wire is not above this same piece. That's because it is on a different breaker.
Lets say the conductors are on the breakers as OP had assumed, still nothing wrong with branching out in a different direction than the "multiwire" portion of the circuit. The installer could have easily ran a three wire cable to a junction box, continued the three wire on and tapped a two wire out of the junction box and most would not question that - yet is effectively the same thing.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
I do agree the dishwasher can not be on same pole of a MWBC that is also supplying small appliance branch circuits, but can still be part of a MWBC with SABC on the other pole.
 
Top