OVERBOARD LOTO Safety issues!!

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gadfly56

Senior Member
Location
New Jersey
What is there to 'fight' about, everyone just follows the company policy and gets on with their lives.
Probably because the same foreman is screaming about how long it's taking to turn the work around. Every time the MCC crew needs to operate the bucket, they have to interrupt the OP's work and drag him over to remove his lock. Then, he has to wait around until they're done so he can lock out the bucket and go back to his own work. I can see where this could put his productivity in the toilet.
 

mcclary's electrical

Senior Member
Location
VA
Probably because the same foreman is screaming about how long it's taking to turn the work around. Every time the MCC crew needs to operate the bucket, they have to interrupt the OP's work and drag him over to remove his lock. Then, he has to wait around until they're done so he can lock out the bucket and go back to his own work. I can see where this could put his productivity in the toilet.



and,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,??????:roll:
 

big john

Senior Member
Location
Portland, ME
YOu have not answered my question yet. Does the MCC have it's own control power xfmr inside? If it does, then he's right. You're working on a motor that has it's disconnect LOTO. Along comes anothe guy who needs to work on the Mcc. He pulls the disco for the MCC. This kills control power, causing any detent single solenoid valve that was energized by the control power, to change states. Down comes a conveyor (by gravity) that had hydraulic cylinders holding it up. Control power is dangerous too
That's an awfully big extrapolation. Besides, if your scenerio was correct and there was the potential for stored hydraulic energy, then they would need to do a hydraulic LOTO as well as an electrical LOTO so the foreman would still be wrong because he's advocating unnecessary double-electrical LOTO.

-John
 

mcclary's electrical

Senior Member
Location
VA
That's an awfully big extrapolation. Besides, if your scenerio was correct and there was the potential for stored hydraulic energy, then they would need to do a hydraulic LOTO as well as an electrical LOTO so the foreman would still be wrong because he's advocating unnecessary double-electrical LOTO.

-John


That was a made up situation, and I don't believe your interpretation is correct. What if the hydraulic unit was also locked out along with motor? My scenario would take mechanical blocking to stop,,,,,not a unit lockout. And in all that disagreement, you missed the point. Control power is dangerous too.
 

big john

Senior Member
Location
Portland, ME
That was a made up situation, and I don't believe your interpretation is correct. What if the hydraulic unit was also locked out along with motor? My scenario would take mechanical blocking to stop,,,,,not a unit lockout. And in all that disagreement, you missed the point. Control power is dangerous too.
I understood your point that control power can be dangerous, and I agree. But it was still a big extrapolation:
...The disco is 99% of the time within site of the motor, and it KILLS ALL power to the motor and there is NO other power source that can get to the person working on it....
We can only go on the information we've been told. This isn't about possible conveyors or hydraulics or control power, it's about feeders to a motor. The disconnect effectively removes power to the motor. There's no reason to lock out the MCC.

-John
 

mcclary's electrical

Senior Member
Location
VA
I understood your point that control power can be dangerous, and I agree. But it was still a big extrapolation: We can only go on the information we've been told. This isn't about possible conveyors or hydraulics or control power, it's about feeders to a motor. The disconnect effectively removes power to the motor. There's no reason to lock out the MCC.

-John


I really don't agree. It's not a big extrapolation, solenoid valves, control power, moving parts, and gravity are present in all munufacturing plants.

And I'd be willing to bet moey that I'm right about there being a control power xfmr in the MCC, he still hasn't answered that. I'll be this LOTO is not zero energy
 

gadfly56

Senior Member
Location
New Jersey
The issue I have with this is that the disco is 99% of the time within site of the motor, and it KILLS ALL power to the motor and there is NO other power source that can get to the person working on it. YES IT IS VERIFIED DEAD/NO POWER!.
I really don't agree. It's not a big extrapolation, solenoid valves, control power, moving parts, and gravity are present in all munufacturing plants.

And I'd be willing to bet moey that I'm right about there being a control power xfmr in the MCC, he still hasn't answered that. I'll be this LOTO is not zero energy
Bet all you want, in court this is "Assuming facts not in evidence." In fact, the OP (see above) puts KILLS ALL, NO, and YES IT IS VERIFIED DEAD/NO POWER in caps so we won't miss the point. Unless you're looking over his shoulder and see something to the contrary, we should do him the courtesy of believing he's telling the truth.
 

mcclary's electrical

Senior Member
Location
VA
Bet all you want, in court this is "Assuming facts not in evidence." In fact, the OP (see above) puts KILLS ALL, NO, and YES IT IS VERIFIED DEAD/NO POWER in caps so we won't miss the point. Unless you're looking over his shoulder and see something to the contrary, we should do him the courtesy of believing he's telling the truth.


I believe he is telling the truth.

I also believe he is not telling the whole story.

I also believe he is trying to not follow company procedures, to which none of us, osha, nfpa, has anything to do with.
 
I agree. Locking out a local disconnect and the MCC is overkill if the work being done is taking place at the motor. It has been my experience that safety requirements that make no sense undermine the safety requirements that are truly necessary to provide a safe work environment.
Very well put!! I'm all for safety, and Im usually the first one to say something about something wrong!! I would be the one considered the 'whinner' on the job, and even I can see how over the top this process is! I try to explain to the non electrician foreman that the disconnect for the motor is made for that 'specific' purpose and when its off there is no other electrical energy there at the motor no one can get hurt over this. Just put a lock on the disco and its all good.

If necessary, we are willing to let the electrician test for voltage and other things for them to be sure the disco is opening properly.

This way none of his guys is complaining about haveing to remove his lock at the mcc and stop working on the motor when the electrician has to do get inside the mcc and take a while repairing/checking things. If his guy just leave hits lock on at the disconnect close to the motor, there would be no delay or any stopping of his guy working on the motor.

Funny how also, none of them wear safety glasses, or steal toe shoes etc.. Like me and yet they trying to look sooo safety! lol
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
I believe he is telling the truth.

I also believe he is not telling the whole story.

I also believe he is trying to not follow company procedures, to which none of us, osha, nfpa, has anything to do with.
sounds to me like he is questioning company procedures, and not trying to disobey them. Can he not do this? If the situation were the otherway around and he thought they needed the second lock but were not requiring it it would be no different. Just someones idea of making a change to company procedures.

If someone doesn't have an idea how can change ever occur? right or wrong. If only one person writes the procedures with no input from others who is to say they are right? They have to allow for changes as things come up and ideas can change over time.
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
Funny how also, none of them wear safety glasses, or steal toe shoes etc.. Like me and yet they trying to look sooo safety! lol
  • Are you paid by the hour?
  • Has this person been given the authority by the company to require two LOTO means?
  • Is this extra step, beyond what OSHA requires, increasing or decreasing safety?

You have every right in the world to disagree with the rule but I have no idea what you are looking for here. The company could require that each time you LOTO you then walk three times around the building and sacrifice a chicken before starting work.

You are on their dime so they get to set the policy as long as it meets or exceeds the Federal requirements.
 

yucan2

Senior Member
I agree. Locking out a local disconnect and the MCC is overkill if the work being done is taking place at the motor. It has been my experience that safety requirements that make no sense undermine the safety requirements that are truly necessary to provide a safe work environment.
In total agreement.
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
I agree. Locking out a local disconnect and the MCC is overkill if the work being done is taking place at the motor. It has been my experience that safety requirements that make no sense undermine the safety requirements that are truly necessary to provide a safe work environment.
I agree with that general statement but lets not forget that determining what rules 'make no sense' is not cut and dry, it is opinion and opinion only.

It has already been pointed out in this thread that in some parts of the electrical industry 'double lockout' is an established practice.

To me this boils down to the employees just not wanting to be told how to do their job.
 
Are you paid by the hour?.
YES

Has this person been given the authority by the company to require two LOTO means?
No he has not, ;) this is why I later brung it up at a meeting and said for his guys to 'stop' putting their lock on the mcc. The disco is enough for them and keeps them safe, and no more complaining from HIS guys about having to remove the lock at the mcc.

Is this extra step, beyond what OSHA requires, increasing or decreasing safety?
Yes its beyond osha, is it increasing safety, NO it is not, nor is it decreasing any safety either.

You have every right in the world to disagree with the rule but I have no idea what you are looking for here. The company could require that each time you LOTO you then walk three times around the building and sacrifice a chicken before starting work.
I suppose I was looking for mostly to vent, and see if anyone else had to deal with overboard safety issues. And again, this is NOT a company policy, rule, instruction or suggestion for that matter lol. This is just something this guy has started on his own and has created a conflict uneccessarily.

You are on their dime so they get to set the policy as long as it meets or exceeds the Federal requirements.
Again this is NOT a company policy! and locking the disco meets the STATE requirments for safety loto. And yes I'm on their (the company's) dime, However I see no reason to create fights and conflict on a job uneccessarily, and listening to a bunch of whinning and complaining! I really enjoy my work and enjoy comming to work, I do not know of to many people that can say that. So this is why I had to speak up at the meeting about this nonsense, and Point out the NEC and why they started the disco requirement and how safe it is to just lock it out and leave the mcc alone. Not to mention to stop the complaining!! Life is too short! ;)
 
Bet all you want, in court this is "Assuming facts not in evidence." In fact, the OP (see above) puts KILLS ALL, NO, and YES IT IS VERIFIED DEAD/NO POWER in caps so we won't miss the point. Unless you're looking over his shoulder and see something to the contrary, we should do him the courtesy of believing he's telling the truth.
Thank you!! I suppose I should have put it in bold type as well as caps. Would it make others feel better if i told them that there were at least 2 electricians that double check for this guy?? maybe if we got 3 electricians and 1 EE engineer and a Mike holt moderator to come out that would help! :) lol

Again I say the disco, KILLS ALL electrical power to the motor! and it is VERIFIED DEAD/NO POWER with the proper meters/testers. some of the comments by others make me wonder if they have ever done any motor, disco control work or installations. ;)
 

eric9822

Senior Member
Location
Camarillo, CA
As an employee of the company I work for I have a little more latitude in questioning the safety requirements of my company then a contractor ever would. Several years ago someone decided that unplugging hand tools such as a drill or a sawzall and controlling the cord was inadequate for safely changing bits or blades. We were all mandated to unplug the device and install a lockout device on the plug before we were allowed to do anything, it did not matter if the device had a 6 foot cord and we were standing 50 feet away from the nearest receptacle. Did this policy improve safety? No. Did it irritate a lot of people? Yes. Did it make a mockery of the entire LOTO program? Yes. Fortunately, after Mr. Knucklehead was transferred to another facility we were able to get rid of the rule. My point is that safety rules need to make sense. If they don't, they undermine the rules that do make sense. Maybe locking out the MCC and the local disconnect do make sense, it does not sound like it in the original post. As an employee of my company I strive to make sure our safety requirements are adequate and do not go overboard. I also encourage all contractors to question things that don't make sense. Sometimes they have valid points, sometimes they realize why the requirement is in place once I explain the rationale.
 
As an employee of the company I work for I have a little more latitude in questioning the safety requirements of my company then a contractor ever would. Several years ago someone decided that unplugging hand tools such as a drill or a sawzall and controlling the cord was inadequate for safely changing bits or blades. We were all mandated to unplug the device and install a lockout device on the plug before we were allowed to do anything, it did not matter if the device had a 6 foot cord and we were standing 50 feet away from the nearest receptacle. Did this policy improve safety? No. Did it irritate a lot of people? Yes. Did it make a mockery of the entire LOTO program? Yes. Fortunately, after Mr. Knucklehead was transferred to another facility we were able to get rid of the rule. My point is that safety rules need to make sense. If they don't, they undermine the rules that do make sense. Maybe locking out the MCC and the local disconnect do make sense, it does not sound like it in the original post. As an employee of my company I strive to make sure our safety requirements are adequate and do not go overboard. I also encourage all contractors to question things that don't make sense. Sometimes they have valid points, sometimes they realize why the requirement is in place once I explain the rationale.
I agree with you statement, that things like this can make a mockery of the LOTO program. Safety rules need to make common sense. In this case of having a guy lockout both the mcc and the disco when he is only working on the motor was ridiculous because the guy who placed the lock would 'complain' about having to remove the one at the mcc when the electrician needed to get in there.
 
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