Recept location 210.52

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GoldDigger said:
You could look at it that way if you see it as a corner rather than the end of the counter. Which brings us back to that question.
:)
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:lol: Great, so we have to start over?.LOL!!! I?m counting the entire wall from the receptacle to the end?>the end being the point where we stand to prepare food. As the picture shows. We start from the receptacle measure,13 inches then measure around the corner another 24 inches. I believe a receptacle is needed between those two points:?
 
resistance said:
:lol: Great, so we have to start over?.LOL!!! I?m counting the entire wall from the receptacle to the end?>the end being the point where we stand to prepare food. As the picture shows. We start from the receptacle measure,13 inches then measure around the corner another 24 inches. I believe a receptacle is needed between those two points:?
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Draw an 8' counter with an end wall and an 8' counter without an end wall. Is the countertop space any different between the two? No, it is not. The countertop spaces are the same, and both would require a minimum of two receptacle outlets
 
I thought the code was refering to counter wall space, and in your case, it would be different--as the end with the wall may require an additional receptacle. Oh well i guess i dont get it
 
resistance said:
I thought the code was refering to counter wall space, and in your case, it would be different--as the end with the wall may require an additional receptacle. Oh well i guess i dont get it
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It maybe needs additional clarification, but most people read it to apply to the linear dimension of the counter - so a wall at the edge is not included in the space requiring a receptacle, and has been said install same counter without a wall at the end - you have not changed the counter any so why a change in required receptacles?
 
kwired said:
It maybe needs additional clarification, but most people read it to apply to the linear dimension of the counter - so a wall at the edge is not included in the space requiring a receptacle, and has been said install same counter without a wall at the end - you have not changed the counter any so why a change in required receptacles?
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In this case we shouldnt measure the countertop wall line
-as we do with standard wall measurements
 
resistance said:
In this case we shouldnt measure the countertop wall line
-as we do with standard wall measurements
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You would measure the wall line along the back of the countertop space, not along the side wall if they exist.

The difference between 210.52(A)(1) and 250.52(C)(1) is that the first tells you to install receptacle outlets at certain spacing for "Wall Spaces", the second tells you to install receptacle outlets at certain spacing for "Countertop Spaces." The countertop space is the same whether there is an endwall or not.
 
david luchini said:
You would measure the wall line along the back of the countertop space, not along the side wall if they exist.

The difference between 210.52(A)(1) and 250.52(C)(1) is that the first tells you to install receptacle outlets at certain spacing for "Wall Spaces", the second tells you to install receptacle outlets at certain spacing for "Countertop Spaces." The countertop space is the same whether there is an endwall or not.
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+1
That is what I was hoping someone would bring up. Now we can speculate whether the CMP had that distinction in mind or not. :)

When you have two runs of countertop meeting in a corner rather than two runs of countertop having ends, the required practice changes in a discontinuous way, and the code is not at all clear on what triggers that transformation.
(What I mean by a discontinuous way is that if you have a four foot deep countertop, adding a one inch (or less) deeper section at one end will create a corner, and that will force you to add at least two additional receptacles just because of that 1" by 48" bit of countertop.)
 
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I spoke with an inspector and he said the wall at the end counts. Not sure what to believe! I just so happen to be reading the code on the topic, and now im here...confused. This isnt to say we cant just add an extra, but why do that if its 300 units
 
Ok imagine the blue tape as a tape measure. The top blue tape is what i believe the code requires us to do<it follows the wall line above the countertop to the end of the counter edge. In this case one extra receptacle is needed. If this isnt correct, then see the bottom tape line and imagine this as a living room wall with a door ( door opening starts at the edge of the counter top). We are required to follow the wall line up to 6 feet before installing a recep outlet. In this case one extra is needed. What makes the countertop different?
 

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resistance said:
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Without benefit of any additional explanation, and with the usual caveat that the Handbook and other supplemental materials are not authoritative (normative), it sure looks like no additional outlets are required based solely on the presence of an end wall.
The argument that (if the counter is less than 24" deep anyway) an outlet on the end wall will not provide for a shorter cord run in a way that the section cares about seems to be persuasive too.

But where there is an actual corner, and only then, you look at the running distance along the back wall. Once you accept that, the only thing about the OP's drawing that needs to be settled is whether or not there is actually a corner there just because the countertop gets wider at the end. :)

BTW I do not quite get what the OP is saying about being "required" to follow the wall line at least six feet before installing another receptacle. You can always add extra receptacles. :)
 
resistance said:
Ok imagine the blue tape as a tape measure. The top blue tape is what i believe the code requires us to do<it follows the wall line above the countertop to the end of the counter edge. In this case one extra receptacle is needed. If this isnt correct, then see the bottom tape line and imagine this as a living room wall with a door ( door opening starts at the edge of the counter top). We are required to follow the wall line up to 6 feet before installing a recep outlet. In this case one extra is needed. What makes the countertop different?
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Let me ask you one question. You're answer will tell you what the code is requiring.

Assuming what we can't see in your picture is a sink or stove and your measurement is starting from that point and moving left towards the end of the countertop.

If you only install one receptacle at or before 24" from the sink or stove, then from the end of the countertop (where the wall counter space ends) do you have to go more than 24" to reach a receptacle?
 
There is a sink to the left, and the receptacle you see in the pic is within 24? per code from the sink. After the receptacle there is 37??s of wall space.
 
If you measure from any point on the wall above the counter top horizontally 24inches you should reach a receptacle, and not more than 18 or 20 inches high above counter top. I don't remember off hand. Same as a wall space when you measure on any point of the wall space 6' horizontally you should reach a receptacle. So above a counter top where a specific space requires a receptacle depending on dimensions you should have a recep. not farther than 48" apart. There fore you would measure 24" on any point of wall a recep.

If you have a peninsula there are dimensions that require us to,have at least one recep.
 
Ohms law said:
If you measure from any point on the wall above the counter top horizontally 24inches you should reach a receptacle, and not more than 18 or 20 inches high above counter top. I don't remember off hand. Same as a wall space when you measure on any point of the wall space 6' horizontally you should reach a receptacle. So above a counter top where a specific space requires a receptacle depending on dimensions you should have a recep. not farther than 48" apart. There fore you would measure 24" on any point of wall a recep.

If you have a peninsula there are dimensions that require us to,have at least one recep.
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And FWIW, in the Handbook we see diagrams showing exactly that measurement for receptacles along wall spaces. But we see a diagram which does not count the measurement along an end wall for countertops.

One objective difference about a countertop is that it extends a finite, fixed and measurable distance from the wall behind it, and the depth of that countertop space is roughly the same as the required maximum distance to a receptacle along the wall. There are good arguments for determining the receptacle situations differently for a countertop than for a wall, as well as evidence that the writers of that NEC section chose to treat the two situations differently.

You can argue all you want about just what the words of the section mean in isolation, in the absence of Handbook and other non-normative references, and there are good arguments for both sides. As to inspectors, we know that there are inspectors in each camp. I do not think that we are likely to reach any consensus here, but it has been a fun discussion so far.
 
resistance said:
Ok imagine the blue tape as a tape measure. The top blue tape is what i believe the code requires us to do<it follows the wall line above the countertop to the end of the counter edge. In this case one extra receptacle is needed. If this isnt correct, then see the bottom tape line and imagine this as a living room wall with a door ( door opening starts at the edge of the counter top). We are required to follow the wall line up to 6 feet before installing a recep outlet. In this case one extra is needed. What makes the countertop different?
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If the counter top turns the corner then the rule is about the same as for other areas where the 6 foot rules apply. But the counter does not turn the corner. The counter is treated as a linear component for determining required receptacles regardless of the depth of the counter.

Set an appliance close to the end wall and a 2 foot cord still reaches the receptacle on the back wall that is within 2 feet of the "end" of the counter.
 
After reading this thread I am starting to wonder if a countertop that ends in free air would require a receptacle no more than 12 inches below the top? Would that 2 feet of counter top space count at the end of the counter? Wouldn?t that space be a peninsular, it does stick out there the depth of the counter.

If the answer to this question is no then wouldn?t the question about it turning the corner be no also? It wouldn?t be counter space in one scenario and not the other would it?
 
jwelectric said:
After reading this thread I am starting to wonder if a countertop that ends in free air would require a receptacle no more than 12 inches below the top? Would that 2 feet of counter top space count at the end of the counter? Wouldn?t that space be a peninsular, it does stick out there the depth of the counter.

If the answer to this question is no then wouldn?t the question about it turning the corner be no also? It wouldn?t be counter space in one scenario and not the other would it?
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Turn the corner with an "end wall" and only go an additional inch (25" of counter top along the end wall) and you should be required to have a receptacle on the end wall because the counter turned and you need a receptacle within 24 inches of the end of the counter.

Now go with same counter dimensions but no end wall and you have a peninsula that only extends 1" - no receptacle required at the end of this particular peninsula until the short dimension of the peninsula reaches 12 inches.

Same countertop - two different conditions as far as determining required receptacles.
 
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