Recept location 210.52

[Ohms law]

Turn the corner with an "end wall" and only go an additional inch (25" of counter top along the end wall) and you should be required to have a receptacle on the end wall because the counter turned and you need a receptacle within 24 inches of the end of the counter.

Now go with same counter dimensions but no end wall and you have a peninsula that only extends 1" - no receptacle required at the end of this particular peninsula until the short dimension of the peninsula reaches 12 inches.

Same countertop - two different conditions as far as determining required receptacles.

I concur.:thumbsup:

 

[resistance]

So i was right all along!
as i was saying the wall follows the countertop to the end. I Posted three pics showing this

 

[david luchini]

So i was right all along!
as i was saying the wall follows the countertop to the end. I Posted three pics showing this

You are misunderstanding what he is saying. He is talking about a "corner" on a countertop, not a countertop that ends at an endwall like the pictures you posted.

I thought the code was refering to counter wall space, and in your case, it would be different--as the end with the wall may require an additional receptacle. Oh well i guess i dont get it

The code does NOT refer to counter wall space, it refers to COUNTERTOP space. An 8' long counter with endwalls and without endwalls has the SAME COUNTERTOP space.

In this case we shouldnt measure the countertop wall line -as we do with standard wall measurements

For Wall Space, 210.52(A)(2) defines a wall space as

Any space 2ft or more in width (including space measured around corners)...

There is no similar wording ("measured around corner") in the Countertop Space section.

The Code does not even require that the required receptacles be installed in the walls. It specifies above, but not more than 20" above the countertop. They could be mounted to the bottom side of cabinets above the counter. Consider an 8' countertop with and without endwalls with receptacles mounted below the cabinetry. Following my approach, the number of required receptacles would be the same if they are mounted in the wall vs. mounted to the cabinets. Following your approach, the number of required receptacles would change. But the Countertop space is identical for each approach, so why would the number of required receptacles be different?

 

[GoldDigger]

You are misunderstanding what he is saying. He is talking about a "corner" on a countertop, not a countertop that ends at an endwall like the pictures you posted.



The code does NOT refer to counter wall space, it refers to COUNTERTOP space. An 8' long counter with endwalls and without endwalls has the SAME COUNTERTOP space.



For Wall Space, 210.52(A)(2) defines a wall space as

There is no similar wording ("measured around corner") in the Countertop Space section.

The Code does not even require that the required receptacles be installed in the walls. It specifies above, but not more than 20" above the countertop. They could be mounted to the bottom side of cabinets above the counter. Consider an 8' countertop with and without endwalls with receptacles mounted below the cabinetry. Following my approach, the number of required receptacles would be the same if they are mounted in the wall vs. mounted to the cabinets. Following your approach, the number of required receptacles would change. But the Countertop space is identical for each approach, so why would the number of required receptacles be different?

Playing devil's advocate, I would say it changes because you have a different set of possible locations for the outlets, even though the need for them has not changed.

 

[david luchini]

Playing devil's advocate, I would say it changes because you have a different set of possible locations for the outlets, even though the need for them has not changed.

"Possible outlet locations" do not change the requirements of 210.52(C).

The minimum outlets required are the same for an 8' countertop in each of these examples...

 

[kwired]

A pendant receptacle that is at least within 20 inches of the countertop is also NEC acceptable. Could hang near the back wall, near the front edge or anywhere between.

 

[resistance]

You are misunderstanding what he is saying. He is talking about a "corner" on a countertop, not a countertop that ends at an endwall like the pictures you posted.

l dont believe i am! And ive been talking about the wall line from the beginning. Not sure you are following me! Dont have my code book in front of me, but im sure it says countertop wall. We are not talking about peninsulas as they are defined. Note: if a wall is at the end of a countertop it normally follows it.

 

[resistance]

Turn the corner with an "end wall" and only go an additional inch (25" of counter top along the end wall) and you should be required to have a receptacle on the end wall because the counter turned and you need a receptacle within 24 inches of the end of the counter.

Now go with same counter dimensions but no end wall and you have a peninsula that only extends 1" - no receptacle required at the end of this particular peninsula until the short dimension of the peninsula reaches 12 inches.

Same countertop - two different conditions as far as determining required receptacles.

This is exactly my point

 

[david luchini]

l dont believe i am! And ive been talking about the wall line from the beginning. Not sure you are following me! Dont have my code book in front of me, but im sure it says countertop wall. We are not talking about peninsulas as they are defined. Note: if a wall is at the end of a countertop it normally follows it.

Your pictures and examples showed a countertop with an end wall, not a countertop turning a corner.

Turn the corner with an "end wall" and only go an additional inch (25" of counter top along the end wall) and you should be required to have a receptacle on the end wall because the counter turned and you need a receptacle within 24 inches of the end of the counter.

These are different. I don't have my code book in front of me either, but I don't recall it mentioning "countertop wall." An 8' straight countertop with an end wall and an 8' straight countertop without and end wall have the same Countertop Space.

 

[Little Bill]

Turn the corner with an "end wall" and only go an additional inch (25" of counter top along the end wall) and you should be required to have a receptacle on the end wall because the counter turned and you need a receptacle within 24 inches of the end of the counter.

Now go with same counter dimensions but no end wall and you have a peninsula that only extends 1" - no receptacle required at the end of this particular peninsula until the short dimension of the peninsula reaches 12 inches.

Same countertop - two different conditions as far as determining required receptacles.

So i was right all along!
as i was saying the wall follows the countertop to the end. I Posted three pics showing this

This is exactly my point

:happyno: That is just kwired's opinion, plus I don't think he meant just having an extension on the front of the counter. But to be honest, I don't really know what he meant by turning the corner and only going 1".
Usually if you "turn the corner" you are going to go at least 12". Then I would agree you would need another receptacle because you would have wall space of 12".

If it makes any difference, my counters both end at the wall on both ends and there are no receptacles on the end wall. And yes, it was wired to code and inspected.

 

[Little Bill]

For full disclosure, the words are actually "wall countertop spaces"

(C) Countertops. In kitchens, pantries, breakfast rooms,
dining rooms, and similar areas of dwelling units, receptacle
outlets for countertop spaces shall be installed in accordance
with 210.52(C)(1) through (C)(5).
Where a range, counter-mounted cooking unit, or sink
is installed in an island or peninsular countertop and the
width of the countertop behind the range, counter-mounted
cooking unit, or sink is less than 300 mm (12 in.), the
range, counter-mounted cooking unit, or sink is considered
to divide the countertop space into two separate countertop
spaces as defined in 210.52(C)(4). Each separate countertop
space shall comply with the applicable requirements in
210.52(C).
(1) Wall Countertop Spaces. A receptacle outlet shall be
installed at each wall countertop space that is 300 mm
(12 in.) or wider. Receptacle outlets shall be installed so
that no point along the wall line is more than 600 mm
(24 in.) measured horizontally from a receptacle outlet in
that space.

I think (C)(1) also makes my point that you wouldn't consider the end wall as countertop space unless there was 12" or more extending or turning the corner.

 

[mjf]

I do see resistance's point.

If there is a side wall, there is generally 24" (of wall) from the edge of the counter to the back wall.

The wording of the code, (Receptacle outlets shall be installed so that no point along the wall line is more than 600 mm (24 in.) measured horizontally from a receptacle outlet in that space.) points to the "side" wall requiring a receptacle, BUT, I don't believe that is the intent of the code. (which is supported by the interpretation in the handbook picture).

 

[GoldDigger]

I do see resistance's point.

If there is a side wall, there is generally 24" (of wall) from the edge of the counter to the back wall.

The wording of the code, (Receptacle outlets shall be installed so that no point along the wall line is more than 600 mm (24 in.) measured horizontally from a receptacle outlet in that space.) points to the "side" wall requiring a receptacle, BUT, I don't believe that is the intent of the code. (which is supported by the interpretation in the handbook picture).

Yes and no.....
The picture which shows no receptacle on the end wall is from Mike Holt.
The picture in the 2011 Handbook does not include any countertop that ends at a wall. Just corners, peninsula, and counter with a space between it and the end wall.

 

[mjf]

Yes and no.....
The picture which shows no receptacle on the end wall is from Mike Holt.
The picture in the 2011 Handbook does not include any countertop that ends at a wall. Just corners, peninsula, and counter with a space between it and the end wall.

My mistake. Thanks for clarifying:thumbsup:.

 

[kwired]

:happyno: That is just kwired's opinion, plus I don't think he meant just having an extension on the front of the counter. But to be honest, I don't really know what he meant by turning the corner and only going 1".
Usually if you "turn the corner" you are going to go at least 12". Then I would agree you would need another receptacle because you would have wall space of 12".

If it makes any difference, my counters both end at the wall on both ends and there are no receptacles on the end wall. And yes, it was wired to code and inspected.

I agree that if you are turning the corner it usually is going to be for at least 12", but it is not impossible to be less.

For full disclosure, the words are actually "wall countertop spaces"


I think (C)(1) also makes my point that you wouldn't consider the end wall as countertop space unless there was 12" or more extending or turning the corner.

I could see that being the intent of what is printed.

 

[Little Bill]

Where's Augie at in this discussion?

Calling Augie47......Augie pick up on line 1 !

 

[resistance]

I do see resistance's point.

If there is a side wall, there is generally 24" (of wall) from the edge of the counter to the back wall.

The wording of the code, (Receptacle outlets shall be installed so that no point along the wall line is more than 600 mm (24 in.) measured horizontally from a receptacle outlet in that space.) points to the "side" wall requiring a receptacle, BUT, I don't believe that is the intent of the code. (which is supported by the interpretation in the handbook picture).

Thats exactly my point

 

[resistance]

Usually if you "turn the corner" you are going to go at least 12". Then I would agree you would need another receptacle because you would have wall space of 12".

not sure ive seen a kitchen countertop start at 24 inches then end at 12. When it turns the corner, its still 24". From the front to the back.

 

[mjf]

I do see resistance's point.

If there is a side wall, there is generally 24" (of wall) from the edge of the counter to the back wall.

The wording of the code, (Receptacle outlets shall be installed so that no point along the wall line is more than 600 mm (24 in.) measured horizontally from a receptacle outlet in that space.) points to the "side" wall requiring a receptacle, BUT, I don't believe that is the intent of the code. (which is supported by the interpretation in the handbook picture).

Thats exactly my point

So, I was right (don't tell my wife)....I do see your point

 

[Little Bill]

not sure ive seen a kitchen countertop start at 24 inches then end at 12. When it turns the corner, its still 24". From the front to the back.

It's not starting at 24" and ending at 12". It turns the corner and runs an additional 12" left/right, still 24" deep.
I'm not saying that is normal, but when turning a corner most I've seen go at least 12", maybe ending at a fridge or something similar.