Recept location 210.52

George Stolz

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For the record,

2011 ROP said:
2-246 Log #4585 NEC-P02
Final Action: Reject
(210.52(C)(1))
_______________________________________________________________
Submitter: Frederic P. Hartwell, Hartwell Electrical Services, Inc.
Recommendation: Add the following sentence: ?Where a countertop space is bounded by more than one wall, the length of a wall line perpendicular to the front edge and equal to the depth of the counter shall not be included in this
measurement.?
Substantiation: Consider two identical 25-in. deep counters 4 ft long, one in a corner and the other between a kitchen sink and a refrigerator. On the literal text of this paragraph, the wall line for the counter in the corner is just over 6 ft long, because the wording ?along the wall line? directly parallels ?along the floor line? in 210.52(A)(1) and that rule always applies around contiguous wall
sections. The other counter is simply a 4-ft counter. Why should one of two identical counters in terms of length and area get double the receptacle coverage? This disparity has been a source of inconsistent code application for decades, and it is time to clarify what should be enforced. In this example, the counter in the corner has zero length beyond the counter depth that is
perpendicular to the front edge. The proposal text also covers short returns, however. As soon as the perpendicular wall space exceeds the counter depth it starts being counted, so a 12-in. return gets a receptacle outlet.
Panel Meeting Action: Reject
Panel Statement: The panel intends that this space be included in the wall line measurement. Exempting the space could result in receptacles being spaced 6 ft apart where the counter continues along wall.
Number Eligible to Vote: 12
Ballot Results: Affirmative: 12
I wrote a similar proposal to this section as the proposal I quoted, asking that sidewalls be omitted from the countertop measurement. The CMP clarified that they intend sidewalls to be included in countertop measurements, essentially requiring an extra receptacle for sidewalls in kitchens.

Edit to add:

Text from my proposal said:
Recommendation: Add the following sentence at the end of (C)(1):
Sidewalls that run perpendicular to the counter shall be permitted to be omitted from this measurement.
Substantiation: A receptacle installed along the back wall of a counter space is usually close to 24 in. from the front edge of a counter. This would serve as a clarification as to where the measurement for receptacle layout begins, the back corner of the wall counter space. As this section is currently written, there are at least two different ways of interpreting it, I am advancing the most prevalent interpretation in the field. I have provided a discussion from an internet forum about this proposal, to clarify what exactly is sought by this proposal.
Panel Meeting Action: Reject
Panel Statement: See panel statement on Proposal 2-246.
 
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Little Bill

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For the record,



I wrote a similar proposal to this section as the proposal I quoted, asking that sidewalls be omitted from the countertop measurement. The CMP clarified that they intend sidewalls to be included in countertop measurements, essentially requiring an extra receptacle for sidewalls in kitchens.

Edit to add:


Substantiation: Consider two identical 25-in. deep counters 4 ft long, one in a corner and the other between a kitchen sink and a refrigerator. On the literal text of this paragraph, the wall line for the counter in the corner is just over 6 ft long, because the wording ?along the wall line? directly parallels ?along the floor line? in 210.52(A)(1) and that rule always applies around contiguous wall
sections. The other counter is simply a 4-ft counter. Why should one of two identical counters in terms of length and area get double the receptacle coverage? This disparity has been a source of inconsistent code application for decades, and it is time to clarify what should be enforced. In this example, the counter in the corner has zero length beyond the counter depth that is
perpendicular to the front edge. The proposal text also covers short returns, however. As soon as the perpendicular wall space exceeds the counter depth it starts being counted, so a 12-in. return gets a receptacle outlet.
Panel Meeting Action: Reject
Panel Statement: The panel intends that this space be included in the wall line measurement. Exempting the space could result in receptacles being spaced 6 ft apart where the counter continues along wall.

The panel's statement doesn't add up or make sense. In the example, there is a 4' counter. The code would require one receptacle at 24" of that 48" space to comply with the 24" rule. So if there was one receptacle at 24", that would leave 24" to the end wall, then if you continue around the wall to the front of the counter that would be another 24". That is only 4' or 48", it's not 6' as they stated. If they placed a receptacle at the beginning of the space and didn't put any more, I agree that would be 6' (4' to the corner + 2' side wall = 6'). But that would be a violation to start with anyway.
 
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George Stolz

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The panel's statement doesn't add up or make sense.
If I had a nickel for every time I've said that! ;)

That is only 4' or 48", it's not 6' as they stated.
Agreed.

The main concept that hopefully they drew from the proposals and responded to, was that they did intend for sidewalls of counter space to be included in "countertop wall space".
 

GoldDigger

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If I had a nickel for every time I've said that! ;)



Agreed.

The main concept that hopefully they drew from the proposals and responded to, was that they did intend for sidewalls of counter space to be included in "countertop wall space".
In which case, maybe a proposal to enhance the drawings in either the Code or the Handbook, or both would be more helpful. Now that they have made it clear in the non-normative and hard to find ROP documentation, it would be nice if the Code itself were equally unambiguous.
PS: To add a couple more ridiculous examples,
1. a 25" wide countertop 24" deep, in a niche between two walls (former refrigerator space maybe?) would require at least two receptacle outlets under their interpretation.
2. As would a 20" wide 30" deep countertop section between a wall and a sink.
And now, here ares the real kickers:

3. A countertop space which is only 10" wide between a range and a wall would seem not to require an receptacle under the 12" rule, but if we also look at the 30" deep end wall, we do require an outlet in that space.
4. Saving the best for last, the requirement is that no part of the countertop wall space (not the countertop space) be more than 24" measured horizontally away from a receptacle.
That means that we can measure "as the crow flies", not along the wall. So, logically, in a corner we can actually space the two outlets on either side of the corner 24" x 1.414 x 2 apart which gives us 68" instead of 48" measured linearly along the wall. Their illustrations in the Handbook are incorrect in this respect, and I think that the wall outlet section has the same fatal flaw, although the language is slightly different:
...measured horizontally along the floor line... of any wall space ....
compared to
... measured horizontally...
The first one should really say measured horizontally "along the base of the wall" rather than "along the floor line".

Anyway, the clear lesson is that the language of the Code means exactly what the CMP thought that they intended it to mean, no more no less, regardless of how badly written it is.
No, wait a minute, that would not be normative. Oh well.....
 

George Stolz

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I think this is clear enough to stay along the wall line:

Receptacle outlets shall be installed so that no point along the wall line is more than 600 mm (24 in.) measured horizontally from a receptacle outlet in that space.
There are some jurisdictions that already measure end walls this way. The discussion I forwarded to CMP-2 was among people who had been brought up in both camps. Both interpretations are valid, it's simply a matter of how you're used to it being read.

Good luck with your proposal, they quite often respond that the existing language is clear. :)
 

Little Bill

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In which case, maybe a proposal to enhance the drawings in either the Code or the Handbook, or both would be more helpful. Now that they have made it clear in the non-normative and hard to find ROP documentation, it would be nice if the Code itself were equally unambiguous.
PS: To add a couple more ridiculous examples,
1. a 25" wide countertop 24" deep, in a niche between two walls (former refrigerator space maybe?) would require at least two receptacle outlets under their interpretation.
2. As would a 20" wide 30" deep countertop section between a wall and a sink.
And now, here ares the real kickers:

3. A countertop space which is only 10" wide between a range and a wall would seem not to require an receptacle under the 12" rule, but if we also look at the 30" deep end wall, we do require an outlet in that space.
4. Saving the best for last, the requirement is that no part of the countertop wall space (not the countertop space) be more than 24" measured horizontally away from a receptacle.
That means that we can measure "as the crow flies", not along the wall. So, logically, in a corner we can actually space the two outlets on either side of the corner 24" x 1.414 x 2 apart which gives us 68" instead of 48" measured linearly along the wall. Their illustrations in the Handbook are incorrect in this respect, and I think that the wall outlet section has the same fatal flaw, although the language is slightly different:
compared to
The first one should really say measured horizontally "along the base of the wall" rather than "along the floor line".

Anyway, the clear lesson is that the language of the Code means exactly what the CMP thought that they intended it to mean, no more no less, regardless of how badly written it is.
No, wait a minute, that would not be normative. Oh well.....
The NEC or code makers don't have anything to do with the handbook. It's just some author's interpretation of the code. Although the handbook authors may be professional or have professional knowledge, anything besides the actual code language isn't guaranteed to be correct.

But I agree, the code could be made a lot more clear than it is. Too much guessing on what their intent was. Or at least they could put in the substantiation/intent for certain unclear rules.
 
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david luchini

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The panel's statement doesn't add up or make sense. In the example, there is a 4' counter. The code would require one receptacle at 24" of that 48" space to comply with the 24" rule. So if there was one receptacle at 24", that would leave 24" to the end wall, then if you continue around the wall to the front of the counter that would be another 24". That is only 4' or 48", it's not 6' as they stated. If they placed a receptacle at the beginning of the space and didn't put any more, I agree that would be 6' (4' to the corner + 2' side wall = 6'). But that would be a violation to start with anyway.
It seems clear to me that the panel read the question as applying to a countertop that continues around a corner (because of the use of the word "corner" in the proposal. If you disregarded the "depth" of the countertop as it turns a corner from the wall space, then you could have a 6' spacing along the wall between receptacles. I don't think anyone disagrees that you would count that space in a corner type countertop space.

As the Code is written, the receptacle outlets do not need to be installed in the wall. They need to be installed in the "countertop space." That could be in the wall, that could be monuments above the countertop, that could be installed at the bottom of cabinetry as long as they are not more than 20" above the countertop. Having an end wall vs. not having an endwall does not change the size of the countertop space.

As an aside, suppose you had a wall space that was 7.5' long, turned the corner and continued another 7.5' (for a 15' long total wall space.) What would be the minimum number of receptacles that need to be installed to comply with 210.52(A)? (Hint: its less than 2.)
 

Little Bill

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It seems clear to me that the panel read the question as applying to a countertop that continues around a corner (because of the use of the word "corner" in the proposal. If you disregarded the "depth" of the countertop as it turns a corner from the wall space, then you could have a 6' spacing along the wall between receptacles. I don't think anyone disagrees that you would count that space in a corner type countertop space.

As the Code is written, the receptacle outlets do not need to be installed in the wall. They need to be installed in the "countertop space." That could be in the wall, that could be monuments above the countertop, that could be installed at the bottom of cabinetry as long as they are not more than 20" above the countertop. Having an end wall vs. not having an endwall does not change the size of the countertop space.

As an aside, suppose you had a wall space that was 7.5' long, turned the corner and continued another 7.5' (for a 15' long total wall space.) What would be the minimum number of receptacles that need to be installed to comply with 210.52(A)? (Hint: its less than 2.)

210.52(A) is for general wall space. I don't see how you could have less than two. If you only had one, you would be more than 6' from reaching a recep at certain places.
 

david luchini

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210.52(A) is for general wall space. I don't see how you could have less than two. If you only had one, you would be more than 6' from reaching a recep at certain places.
Your not seeing it because you think the code says you have to have receptacle outlets mounted in the wall such that no point along the wall is more than 6' from an outlet (ie, not more than 6' from the end of a wall and not more than 12' apart.) But that is not what the code says. It says that receptacle outlets shall be installed in the WALL SPACE such that no point measured horizontally along the floor line of the wall space shall be more than 6' from an outlet. It is the same with COUNTERTOP spaces. People think the Code says that receptacle outlets shall be installed in the wall not more than 2' from the end and not more than 4' apart. But again that is not what the Code says.

For the wall space question, you have to consider what is considered the wall space for the purpose of installing receptacle outlets. If you installed receptacle outlets 1' apart for the entire 15' wall, but mounted them at 6' above the floor, would that satisfy the requirements of 210.52(A)? The answer is no, because 210.52 (4) says that outlets more than 5.5' above the floor are not considered to be receptacles meeting the requirements of the other parts of 210.52.

Now consider a floor mounted receptacle mounted near the corner, 18" out from the wall in both directions. ONE receptacle mounted at that position in the floor would ensure that no point in the wall space measured horizontally along the floor line of the wall space would be more than 6' from an outlet. The floor receptacle outlet would be 6' from each end of the wall.
 

GoldDigger

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Your not seeing it because you think the code says you have to have receptacle outlets mounted in the wall such that no point along the wall is more than 6' from an outlet (ie, not more than 6' from the end of a wall and not more than 12' apart.) But that is not what the code says. It says that receptacle outlets shall be installed in the WALL SPACE such that no point measured horizontally along the floor line of the wall space shall be more than 6' from an outlet. It is the same with COUNTERTOP spaces. People think the Code says that receptacle outlets shall be installed in the wall not more than 2' from the end and not more than 4' apart. But again that is not what the Code says.

For the wall space question, you have to consider what is considered the wall space for the purpose of installing receptacle outlets. If you installed receptacle outlets 1' apart for the entire 15' wall, but mounted them at 6' above the floor, would that satisfy the requirements of 210.52(A)? The answer is no, because 210.52 (4) says that outlets more than 5.5' above the floor are not considered to be receptacles meeting the requirements of the other parts of 210.52.

Now consider a floor mounted receptacle mounted near the corner, 18" out from the wall in both directions. ONE receptacle mounted at that position in the floor would ensure that no point in the wall space measured horizontally along the floor line of the wall space would be more than 6' from an outlet. The floor receptacle outlet would be 6' from each end of the wall.
Extending that to the limit, you could have one receptacle at the center of the floor of a 12' by 12' room.
:)
 

George Stolz

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Recept location 210.52

Having an end wall vs. not having an endwall does not change the size of the countertop space.
No, but that's about as relevant as the paint color. The code speaks specifically to wall countertop space, and the CMP has gone on record rejecting exempting end walls. You can contort that however you wish, but it does not diminish the AHJ's hand that decides to interpret it that way.

As an aside, suppose you had a wall space that was 7.5' long, turned the corner and continued another 7.5' (for a 15' long total wall space.) What would be the minimum number of receptacles that need to be installed to comply with 210.52(A)? (Hint: its less than 2.)
You'll need to draw that, I have no idea how you could possibly do that for less that two - whether you install them in the wall, the floor, or swing them from a trapeze.

Edit: two, not three, wife talking in ear
 
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david luchini

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No, but that's about as relevant as the paint color. The code speaks specifically to wall countertop space, and the CMP has gone on record rejecting exempting end walls. You can contort that however you wish, but it does not diminish the AHJ's hand that decides to interpret it that way.
It seems clear to me that the CMP has addressed the wall for a corner countertop space. I have no qualms with an AHJ interpreting the code any way he/she wishes.


You'll need to draw that, I have no idea how you could possibly do that for less that two - whether you install them in the wall, the floor, or swing them from a trapeze.

Edit: two, not three, wife talking in ear
It seems to me if you understand that a floor receptacle within 18" of the wall counts a being in the wall space, it would be clear how 1 floor receptacle meets the requirements of 210.52(A) in the scenario I've given.
 

GoldDigger

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It doesn't matter if the room is in the shape of Mickey Mouse; if the receptacle is not within 18" of the wall it doesn't count.
Exactly, and if the wall is following the sort of curve I referred to, each side wall will come within 18" of the center of the room as many times as you want. But since it will be a smooth curve, it will still be just one side wall, not divided up into separate runs around corners.
Now with a wall like that you might find it hard to do anything useful in the room, but the NEC would not care about that either. :)

For examples of space filling curves (although all of the ones shown are composed of straight line segments and so would not be what is needed in this situation) see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space-filling_curve
 
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Little Bill

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Inside corner. Nuts. :ashamed1:
I had to study on that one a bit too.:blink: I had forgotten about his 15' scenario. (two 7.5' walls w/corner)

To have the one receptacle 18" out from one wall would mean it would be 18" from the other if it's near the corner.
7.5'=90"
90"-18"=72"
72"=6'

from end of either wall to the ONE receptacle.....6'
:slaphead:
 
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resistance

Senior Member
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WA
Good to see my question sparked a ton of replies. In my many years on this site and others, I have ?never? seen one go this long! I stand on my interpretation, that one extra is needed!!
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
Good to see my question sparked a ton of replies. In my many years on this site and others, I have ?never? seen one go this long! I stand on my interpretation, that one extra is needed!!
This is not all that long, get the engineers involved in a discussion on why single phase power has two "hot" leads but is not called "two phase" and you can get many more posts:happyyes:
 
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