Recept location 210.52

Status
Not open for further replies.
resistance said:
I hear ya! I?m just shocked I had a post run this long:D
Click to expand...
It tried to stop several times, but you just would not let it die until the consensus swung in your direction.
I still argue that it does not make any sense to require the extra receptacles, but the Code seems to be doing it. :)
 
GoldDigger said:
And I agreed with you until I read ROP comments to the contrary from the Vmp.CMP.
Click to expand...

The ROP comments clearly refer to a Corner counter where excluding the wall at the depth of the counter "could result in receptacles being spaced 6 ft apart where the counter continues along wall."

Counter.jpg
 
If you had an 8' countertop with a 2' endwall at each side for a total measured wall length of 12', you might believe that the countertop would require at least 3 receptacle outlets (ie, 1 receptacle for every 4' of measured wall space.)

But the attached shows only two outlets meeting the code requirements.

Counter2.jpg
 
david luchini said:
If you had an 8' countertop with a 2' endwall at each side for a total measured wall length of 12', you might believe that the countertop would require at least 3 receptacle outlets (ie, 1 receptacle for every 4' of measured wall space.)

But the attached shows only two outlets meeting the code requirements.

View attachment 9269
Click to expand...

Just where in the Code does this drawing appear? :)
 
david luchini said:
It doesn't...but it certainly complies with Code requirements.
Click to expand...
Arguably.

The full faith and credit, count the end wall, folks will tell you that it does not, because a point near the front edge of the countertop near the end wall is more than 24" from the nearest receptacle measuring along the wall from the nearest point on the wall. Two defining factors of the argument have always been whether or not you can choose the counter edge to which you drop your perpendicular from a point on the counter and whether an "as the crow flies" horizontal distance plays any role.
If this were wall outlets in a room, we would have the explicit Code provision that a receptacle not more than 18" from the wall(s) can be treated as providing a required outlet for one or more wall spaces. In this section, since that is not addressed at all, we do not have that assurance, so your assignment of one of the under-cabinet receptacles as covering the space defined by the end wall, 24" away, is on shaky ground. In fact, there is some question about whether a receptacle on the bottom of a cabinet counts at all. One on the wall, and one in the countertop are both explicitly mentioned.

If the counter were any deeper than 24" (not uncommon, both 30" and 32" can be found in big kitchens) then your construction would still be just as (questionably) valid as it is for your diagram, but even harder for the end-wallers to accept.
 
Last edited:
david luchini said:
The ROP comments clearly refer to a Corner counter where excluding the wall at the depth of the counter "could result in receptacles being spaced 6 ft apart where the counter continues along wall."

View attachment 9268
Click to expand...

The ROP comments were also clearly in response to proposals designed to allow exactly what you believe is currently code. They were rejected. :)
 
GoldDigger said:
The full faith and credit, count the end wall, folks will tell you that it does not, because a point near the front edge of the countertop near the end wall is more than 24" from the nearest receptacle measuring along the wall from the nearest point on the wall. Two defining factors of the argument have always been whether or not you can choose the counter edge to which you drop your perpendicular from a point on the counter and whether an "as the crow flies" horizontal distance plays any role.
Click to expand...

That is incorrect. There is no point along the wall line that is more than 24" measured horizontally from a receptacle outlet in the countertop space.


GoldDigger said:
If this were wall outlets in a room, we would have the explicit Code provision that a receptacle not more than 18" from the wall(s) can be treated as providing a required outlet for one or more wall spaces. In this section, since that is not addressed at all, we do not have that assurance, so your assignment of one of the under-cabinet receptacles as covering the space defined by the end wall, 24" away, is on shaky ground. In fact, there is some question about whether a receptacle on the bottom of a cabinet counts at all.
Click to expand...

Again, that is incorrect, and it gets directly to my point. The code does NOT say that receptacle outlets shall be installed in the wall for countertop spaces. The Code says receptacle outlets shall be installed ON or ABOVE, but not more than 20" above, the COUNTERTOP.

GoldDigger said:
One on the wall, and one in the countertop are both explicitly mentioned.
Click to expand...

"On the wall" and "in the countertop" are, in fact, NOT mentioned at all.
 
Last edited:
George Stolz said:
The ROP comments were also clearly in response to proposals designed to allow exactly what you believe is currently code. They were rejected. :)
Click to expand...

I disagree. The ROP asked a question about a countertop installed in a CORNER, and the CMP's response is specific to a CORNER counterop where there could be 6' between receptacle outlets if the depth of counter is not counted. There could not be 6' between receptacles in an endwall scenario. The rejection is very specific about the 6'.
 
When I wrote my proposal I was pretty sure I was writing about end walls, and proposing that the CMP clarify that end walls should not be required to be included in the wall space measurement. I suppose I could have been writing about hats, sometimes I lose track of things.
 
George Stolz said:
When I wrote my proposal I was pretty sure I was writing about end walls, and proposing that the CMP clarify that end walls should not be required to be included in the wall space measurement. I suppose I could have been writing about hats, sometimes I lose track of things.
Click to expand...

Did the proposal or did it not use the word CORNER?

And was or was not the CMPS's rejection based specifically on receptacles being more than 6' apart where the counterop continues around a corner?
Panel Statement: The panel intends that this space be included in the wall line measurement. Exempting the space could result in receptacles being spaced 6 ft apart where the counter continues along wall.
Click to expand...
 
You know, layout a kitchen in whatever fashion is customary in your area. In my area end walls are omitted from the requirements.

In other areas, they are required to be included. It is a valid interpretation of the rules as written. If you don't want to admit that it's a valid interpretation that's your privilege. Don't expect the inspection to pass if the AHJ disagrees, 90.4 is clear on that point.

I'm done.
 
I am going to stay out of the argument of whether or not the drawing David submitted is code compliant or not.

I will say that the owner of this kitchen will probably be disappointed if there is not at least one more receptacle in that installation.

Those customers with a fancy backsplash of course do not want any receptacles - until they have no place to plug in appliances- plugmold directly under the upper cabinets works well there and provides well over minimum required receptacles - as long as there is an upper cabinet within 20 inches of the countertop.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top