signing a lien waiver prior to getting paid

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RH1 said:
Liening houses produces lots of drama, real "shock and awe" but beyond it's theatrical effects, it is of little use...
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You can say that again. It really is meaning less to someone who is knowledgeable.

But I'm not so sure I agree that signing a release that is unconditional has no meaning other than lein.
 
mivey said:
True enough. Can be more drama if someone is trying to sell or re-fi.
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I wonder if that could get you in more trouble than getting paid. In Ca. the customer could likely file a complaint and then it's all your fault as the dept. sides with the consumer. Then there is the issue. of your customer sues you for illegally holding up the sale. higher interest additional payments, ect ect ect
 
Sierrasparky said:
But I'm not so sure I agree that signing a release that is unconditional has no meaning other than lein.
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You are exactly right.

When a GC hands you his unconditional lien release, it also contains language that by signing, you agree that you have been paid in full. That is why the EC should always produce his own lien releases.
 
Sierrasparky said:
I wonder if that could get you in more trouble than getting paid. In Ca. the customer could likely file a complaint and then it's all your fault as the dept. sides with the consumer. Then there is the issue. of your customer sues you for illegally holding up the sale. higher interest additional payments, ect ect ect
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The legal action you speak of is called "Slander of Title" and I have been sued twice and in each instance had the case dismissed. The fact is, as you know, here in California contractors have been granted the legal right to record Mechanic's Liens when we haven't been paid. It's our right and it can't be taken away from us.

Slander of Title means that you have liened a property for no legal reason. The defense to Slander of Title is the truth.
 
RH1 said:
The legal action you speak of is called "Slander of Title" and I have been sued twice and in each instance had the case dismissed. The fact is, as you know, here in California contractors have been granted the legal right to record Mechanic's Liens when we haven't been paid. It's our right and it can't be taken away from us.

Slander of Title means that you have liened a property for no legal reason. The defense to Slander of Title is the truth.
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Yea but what if the customer makes a claim you did something wrong.
 
Sierrasparky said:
Actually either case. challenging the lein. A good attorney can challeng and succeed at almost anything.
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A 'good' attorney or a 'well-funded' attorney?
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A customer's lawyer will know that in order to succesfully challenge the leini he must have a good faith claim on you the contractor. This is not very difficult to do. All the customer has to do is find fault with acouple of things and claim the whole job is a mess. The customer has control over the premises and can and will fabricate any wrong doing it would be your workd against theirs.
 
Sierrasparky said:
your word against theirs.
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This is the nature of all disputes. However, courts favor evidence over simple words. Courts are also aware of the fact that defendants will lie and try to make their actions seem justifiable.

For example, if your work was indeed substandard, why didn't the customer communicate this fact to you before a lien was recorded? If the defendant claims they did not pay because the work was of poor quality, it seems reasonable they would have mentioned this before it became a legal dispute. The court will likely find the defendant's defense theory somewhat suspicious.

It should never be "their word against yours", was the job inspected? Did the city inspector find the work acceptable? Who is a better judge of a quality installation, the city inspector or the customer? Was there a written contract itemizing the scope of work and was that scope of work completed?

If you have satisfied your contractural obligations, it is time for the customer to satisfy their's. If you have your ducks in a row and have maintained your end of the bargain, you should not worry about what your customer might possibly do if you exercise your legal rights.
 
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LarryFine said:
"You're addressing a superior officer!"

"No, sir; merely a higher ranking one!"
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Ya know, this reminds of a phrase you'll sometimes hear in our culture, that someone is a "powerful" attorney. Does this mean he can bench 300 pounds? Just what is a "powerful" attorney? Is it an attorney with a massive knowledge of law and amazing courtroom skills? The answer is no.

First off, lets define our terms, what is meant by the word "Powerful". This term can be applied to lawyers, politicians, etc. But what does it really mean? Simply put, "Powerful" means that someone can coerce someone else to do something they would not normally do.

A "Powerful" attorney can get a judge to overrule an argument he would normally allow. A "Powerful" politician can get the police chief to abuse his authority and do things he would never ordinarily do.

To be "Powerful" is to be able to get others to do things they shouldn't. When you look for powerful people in society, they are almost always rich people. For reasons not obvious to the casual observer, the "Rich and Powerful" seem to be able to make others bend to their will.

A "powerful" attorney is powerful not because of his admirable intellect, he is powerful because he has an inappropriate, clandestine and certainly illegal relationship with other members of the court.

Anyway, that's my rant for the day, gotta get to work!
 
RH1 said:
Ya know... Simply put, "Powerful" means that someone can coerce someone else to do something they would not normally do...To be "Powerful" is to be able to get others to do things they shouldn't. When you look for powerful people in society, they are almost always rich people. For reasons not obvious to the casual observer, the "Rich and Powerful" seem to be able to make others bend to their will.
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"With democratic socialism, the most important decisions are made by people we elect. With capitalism, those decisions are made by the people with the most money and influence. Often in the U.S. we unfortunately combine the worst of socialism with the worst of capitalism, as government power succors the powerful and stacks the economic deck against us lackeys." -peter lackey
 
RH1 said:
This is the nature of all disputes. However, courts favor evidence over simple words. Courts are also aware of the fact that defendants will lie and try to make their actions seem justifiable.

For example, if your work was indeed substandard, why didn't the customer communicate this fact to you before a lien was recorded? If the defendant claims they did not pay because the work was of poor quality, it seems reasonable they would have mentioned this before it became a legal dispute. The court will likely find the defendant's defense theory somewhat suspicious.

It should never be "their word against yours", was the job inspected? Did the city inspector find the work acceptable? Who is a better judge of a quality installation, the city inspector or the customer? Was there a written contract itemizing the scope of work and was that scope of work completed?

If you have satisfied your contractural obligations, it is time for the customer to satisfy their's. If you have your ducks in a row and have maintained your end of the bargain, you should not worry about what your customer might possibly do if you exercise your legal rights.
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I suppose it works that way in your area but in mine is seems the cutomer is always right. If you are in Ca. then I am sure you know this. A civil case can take years to go to trial and then they settle at the last possible moment. I guess you have been fortunate not to do the legal twostep.
 
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