Sorry guys...my first post will be a question...need help bad!

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don_resqcapt19

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Illinois
He's saying that if there is more than one voltage system (i.e. a transformer to go from 480 to 208 on the premises) then you need a sign to indicate what colors mean what.
I am saying more than that. I am saying if the sign says you are using black, red, and blue wire for the phase conductors, then using tape to re-identify a blue wire as a red wire would be a violation.
 

banditz

Member
Hey guys! Thanks alot for all the responses. The issue I had was simply we were feeding a whole line of park lights outside on a trail...and we were pulling several conductors out there and feeding some with one color and so on and so forth...Well, after about three pulls we ran short and then out of red. We had bl,r,b...anyway I ran out of red...so I pulled two blacks, and a blue..along with ground n neutral of course... and marked, or phased one of the blacks red...just so I would know which wire it was. Hope this clears stuff up on here. Yes, the building has 120,208, and 277-480 power. But i dont think that matters in my case.

The foreman threw me to the dogs in front of the guys I am supposed to be teaching what I know, and started saying this sXXt had been in the code book for the last eight years and that I should know better! So....I wanted revenge...lol. I have never heard of this before...nor after thirty minutes of looking, could I find anything saying I could not use phase tape like I did. He said teh wire had to be complete all the way, as in no phase tape and unless it is red, that I would have to pull it out and redo it. Even though this was a real pain in the rear to pull...haha...I even asked his boss today and he said there was nothing he could find either that said it was illegal!! LOL
 

Karl H

Senior Member
Location
San Diego,CA
In this case the NEC will tell you what you can't do, not what you can do.

You are fine.
A few people people in my experience confuse, "If the NEC doesn't
say you can't, you can."
With "If "I" can't find it it in the NEC then "I" can, until a qualified
electrical inspector says,I can't." :grin:

To me, it sounds like this guys journeyman is confusing the identification
of grounded and grounding conductors with ungrounded. 6 and smaller.
 

LarryFine

Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
Or if say there were two or more transformers - each of the 208/120 systems would need to differ, and be identified... As would the neutrals for each.
I'm not sure that's correct. There is not an unlimited number of colors of wire available.

I do agree with marking panel and circuit ID's on J-boxes and equipment.
 

LarryFine

Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
I even asked his boss today and he said there was nothing he could find either that said it was illegal!! LOL
Never put off climbing the food chain when necessary. (Everyone has a superior for a reason.) Not adversarily, but in a joint effort to find the the truth, for the education of both of you.

I like to keep in mind that it's just as illegal to fail something improperly as it is to pass something that is non-compliant. (You didn't say "the inspector," but the theory is the same.)
 

Karl H

Senior Member
Location
San Diego,CA
I'm not sure that's correct. There is not an unlimited number of colors of wire available.

I do agree with marking panel and circuit ID's on J-boxes and equipment.
Your only required to to show that identification label at the panelboard
or at distribution equipment, not j-boxes or equipment. Sorry, I had to say it
cause everyone is reading way too much into the OP. :)
 

radiopet

Senior Member
Location
Spotsylvania, VA
(C) Ungrounded Conductors. Where the premises wiring
system has branch circuits supplied from more than one
nominal voltage system, each ungrounded conductor of a
branch circuit shall be identified by phase or line and system
at all termination, connection, and splice points. The
means of identification shall be permitted to be by separate
color coding, marking tape, tagging, or other approved
means. The method utilized for conductors originating
within each branch-circuit panelboard or similar branch circuit
distribution equipment shall be documented in a
manner that is readily available or shall be permanently
posted at each branch-circuit panelboard or similar branch circuit
distribution equipment.
 

Karl H

Senior Member
Location
San Diego,CA
The OP tagged "B" phase red, and thats acceptable. Unless for some odd
reason the panel "Identification said "B Phase- Sea Foam" I don't see why
this is a big deal. Are we all bored tonight? :grin:
 

e57

Senior Member
I'm not sure that's correct. There is not an unlimited number of colors of wire available.

I do agree with marking panel and circuit ID's on J-boxes and equipment.
Not unlimited - but threr are a WHOLE LOT OF THEM.

Example: (JUST "A" PHASE)
Black insulation on wire. From there you have a few choices of colors for stripes, and an equal number of choices for lettering - just on black insulation alone. And... with numbers and letter you can have infinate combinations..... I'm not even gonna get out a calculator to figure out how many combinations you could get just on black insulation alone. Why - because it is way more than the number of transformers I have ever seen in a single structure.

FYI - on some larger jobs I make the supply house guys dig through to the bottom of the pallets, or order ahead and save wire from different shipments - so I can get two or more lot numbers. Conductors from the 'same manufacturer' will differ in the lettering color by lot number. ;)
 

Smart $

Esteemed Member
Location
Ohio
(C) Ungrounded Conductors. Where the premises wiring
system has branch circuits supplied from more than one
nominal voltage system, each ungrounded conductor of a
branch circuit shall be identified by phase or line and system
at all termination, connection, and splice points.
The means of identification shall be permitted to be by separate
color coding, marking tape, tagging, or other approved means.

The method utilized for conductors originating
within each branch-circuit panelboard or similar branch circuit
distribution equipment shall be documented in a
manner that is readily available or shall be permanently
posted at each branch-circuit panelboard or similar branch circuit
distribution equipment.
Red highlighting emphasizes OP'er's compliance :)

Blue highlighting emphasizes Don's assertion. ;)
 

don_resqcapt19

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Illinois
I don't get it. :-?
The required sign at each panel of a building with multiple voltage systems must specify the method that is used to identify the conductors. If the required sign says you are using wire colors to indentify the system and phase, then you can't use tape markings to do the identification.
 

e57

Senior Member
The required sign at each panel of a building with multiple voltage systems must specify the method that is used to identify the conductors. If the required sign says you are using wire colors to indentify the system and phase, then you can't use tape markings to do the identification.
Who says you cant'? ;)

Say for instance the sign says "Identified by means of colored tape. Please refer to identification chart below:"
 
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