First year in business and just had my first digruntled customer

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BLACK4TRUCK said:
Problems with T&M:

1) did he really use all that wire for my job

2) he seems to working really slow

3) am I paying for that lunch?

4) who is paying for traveling time

This is why I give am itemized estimate for a job. Each item is spelled out and I still see no reason to use T&M. IMO you start out on the wrong foot.

Would you hire a carpenter to build you a new house using T&M???
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Untill now, all of our customers seem to be impressed with our speedy work and our quality becuase they tell us so, and most of our work is word of mouth. I've had no such questions....or at least until this 275lb widow women with alot of money crossed my path.....:D

As for your question about the carpenter.....NO.. but thats a $150-200,000 project that is not revelant with my small jobs that typically are $2000 or less

at least to me its not....:D

See, Im the guy that got some concrete work done the other day and the contractor give me a estimate of $1300. I asked him to make some revisions, which he did, and said Oh dont worry about it, and I said NO, and he said really dont worry about it.....I wrote him out a check for $1450, he said thanks I apreciate that......
 
iwire said:
We do a ton of T&M, but for commercial customers, sometimes just 'T' and they supply the materials.

We had 1 to 3 guys at one customers factory daily for about five years. Would you turn down that steady income?
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Nope... I would jump on it just like your shop did. I have never heard a positive comment from a customer who used T&M to get a job done. Anytime I take on a new account, I always ask what happened to the las EC you had. The T&M thing pops up and its never a pretty picture
 
BLACK4TRUCK said:
Anytime I take on a new account, I always ask what happened to the las EC you had.
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Most times you take on a new account it is because the customer was unhappy with the last EC regardless of T&M or contract.

Don't get me wrong contract work is great but IMO your off base saying that T&M is never the way to go. :smile:

Now at home, would I have had my roof done or my masonry repairs done as T&M, no way. :smile:
 
We have a good working relationship with a fire restoration company almost everything we do for them is T&M and it works out great they understand that TY is more than what the wage is and that M has a mark-up.Some of the jobs are so small I would spend more time doing an estimate than it took to do the job.
 
How do you figure. We recently had a customer ask what our hourly rates were to install some recessed lights. When we told him he preferred to have a quote for the work and not go T & M. We gave him the quote which he accepted. The job went very well, we invoiced him and we received a reply back asking how we arrived at our price because using our hourly rates he figured that it should have been half of the quote. We did get our full price but letting your customer know your rates can come back and bite you.
 
iwire said:
We do a ton of T&M, but for commercial customers, sometimes just 'T' and they supply the materials.

We had 1 to 3 guys at one customers factory daily for about five years. Would you turn down that steady income?
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don't confuse commercial T&M with resi service....that's like comparing a Ferrari to a donkey...not even in the same thought...
 
iwire said:
If you read my posts you can see I have not done that. :D
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i know...but many have...i just happened to quote your post while making my statement...but, we do T&M all the time on commercial (one point of contact, multiple facilities....it just alleviates lots of wasted time)...however, resi? never....
 
emahler said:
don't confuse commercial T&M with resi service....that's like comparing a Ferrari to a donkey...not even in the same thought...
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I would have to agree, resi folks are fitting this expenditure into a budget that doesnt have a line item for electrical work, and their budget is already on red alert.

Commercial clients are spending money to make money, and thats a whole different ball game.

So thinking back on it now...Yep resi is where I get the most request for estimates, which their mind they really want a quote, but its not the buzz word they are used to IMO....mostly because they see the adds for "free estimates" all the time, so that's how they think. On the flip, commercial clients are more business minded and understand proposals, quotes and these type of terms...........
 
SEO said:
How do you figure. We recently had a customer ask what our hourly rates were to install some recessed lights. When we told him he preferred to have a quote for the work and not go T & M. We gave him the quote which he accepted. The job went very well, we invoiced him and we received a reply back asking how we arrived at our price because using our hourly rates he figured that it should have been half of the quote. We did get our full price but letting your customer know your rates can come back and bite you.
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I had a GC ask me the same thing last week - I told him - the first time we ever put in recessed lights it took 3 times as long but a 1000 or so recessed lights later we got pretty good at it - I shouldn't be penalized for knowing how to do something really good and fast. he shrugged agreed and paid me.
 
I avoid that conversation whenever I see it coming. It's easy because my partner is in charge of estimating and I am in the field.

If I do get trapped in that conversation, I tell them that sometimes it goes well and sometime it doesn't.

I tell them that I have to estimate somewhere in the middle.

Actually, I estimate for the worst case scenario. There is no way I am working for free unless it's a close relative or a preferred charity.
 
Mule

I have a friend who was an EC in a small town and something very similar happened to him. He told the lady not to call him anymore and went on his way.

About 6 months later she had her freinds calling him to do work on what he knew was her property.

Apparantly she had burned another EC and word got out. Nobody within a 50 mile radius would work for her.

In a small town people talk (I'm not suggesting you trash her name around town) and karma might just bite her in the butt. I wouldn't loose any sleep over this.
 
MJW said:
Mule

I have a friend who was an EC in a small town and something very similar happened to him. He told the lady not to call him anymore and went on his way.

About 6 months later she had her freinds calling him to do work on what he knew was her property.

Apparantly she had burned another EC and word got out. Nobody within a 50 mile radius would work for her.

In a small town people talk (I'm not suggesting you trash her name around town) and karma might just bite her in the butt. I wouldn't loose any sleep over this.
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Its funny that you would say this because before I was contracting, she was using brand "B" which is a friend of mine. So one day she calls me, with one of those "gota have right now" and I'm terribly sick in bed with the flu, so she couldnt wait, so she called brand "B". He went and put a band-aid on the situtation, then said he'd be back to fix it right. Well he's busy like everyone else. She finally got tired of waiting on him and gave the job back to me. Then complained that she had paid to have it fixed once, and the other guy charged her to fix it and didnt finish, and now she was having to pay again for me to do it........So now Im thinking she's a broken record..............:D

Seriously I hate the situation, its really not funny at all, but IMO if you dont trust folks in your own little circle of business and social community, you better find someone else to deal with. And that's what I told her. Its a two way street to me....:rolleyes:
 
SEO said:
We gave him the quote which he accepted. The job went very well, we invoiced him and we received a reply back asking how we arrived at our price because using our hourly rates he figured that it should have been half of the quote.
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You merely explain that you gave your quote before you gambled on not running into ducts, plumbing, framing, and other wires. Then ask him, if you had run into trouble, would he have been okay with you asking for more than your quote.

Often, I give a quote and am asked how I arrived at the labor part. I explain the risks and gave an estimated time range. They ask if the price will be less if it's quicker and/or easier, and I ask if I can charge more if it's slower and/or harder.

You can guess the response.
 
Mule said:
But for her to question my word, sends me over the edge......
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Have you ever considered that the lady may question your validity more than your veracity. :-?

When dealing with a widow you have to consider the fact that they have buried at least one man already. :wink:

This is such a great subject that I thought I could get in one more good humorous comment.
 
growler said:
Have you ever considered that the lady may question your validity more than your veracity. :-?

When dealing with a widow you have to consider the fact that they have buried at least one man already. :wink:

This is such a great subject that I thought I could get in one more good humorous comment.
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I had to look that up......veracity :)

I think she's used to cheapier EC, and she flipped out over the bill. I know you guys find that hard to believe...........:grin:

I believe if someone convinced me that I interuped that invoice wrong as she did, I would have changed my tune and paid the $350 no question. Because I believe a man is worth his wages.......but her?.... not the case

Oh well no biggy.......If I get past the friendship issue, really, its quite humorous IMO................:grin:
 
We've had a fews projects that have dragged over long periods of time. Sometimes you can't hook up an AC unit in the late fall because the heating/cooling company won't install the thing until spring when they can charge and test it all in the same trip so what do you do then, right?
My boss does primarily TnM. It works for him, it seems like when he bids a job for someone shopping for the price it's nothing but headache and a pain in the rear for him.
I like how you handled the situation. I would have done the same.
 
LarryFine said:
You merely explain that you gave your quote before you gambled on not running into ducts, plumbing, framing, and other wires. Then ask him, if you had run into trouble, would he have been okay with you asking for more than your quote.

Often, I give a quote and am asked how I arrived at the labor part. I explain the risks and gave an estimated time range. They ask if the price will be less if it's quicker and/or easier, and I ask if I can charge more if it's slower and/or harder.

You can guess the response.
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Good answer Larry, going in my quick comeback library!
 
JohnJ0906 said:
Mule, did you call her in advance and let her know you were going to do this work?

Perhaps part of the problem is the fact she received an unexpected bill.

This might have been resolved easier if she knew there would be a bill before you did the work.
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Mule, I'm still wondering - did you notify her you were coming to do the work before you did it?
 
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