Preforming my first live service changeout

[iwire]

Perhaps you could start sending the safety person at the local power company the OSHA sections?

That's not my concern.

How is it 'not your concern?

Are you an EC?

Do you have employees?

If you have employees you should be pretty damn concerned if not for their safety at least for he money it will cost you if you are fined.

 

[ty]

How is it 'not your concern?

It's not my concern to supply the Power Companies with OSHA regulations that they are aware of.
Do you think they are concerned to get them?

You assume I haven't contacted them in the past.
They have no care.
This is the way it is.

Are you an EC?

You know I am.
I own 3 businesses.

Do you have employees?

yep.

If you have employees you should be pretty damn concerned if not for their safety at least for he money it will cost you if you are fined.

What makes you think that I am not?
Have I stated that I require any of my employees to perform this task?

Bob, I've known you here for many years. Over 10.
You are beating a dead horse with me on this subject.
It is going to turn into 82 pages of debate over OSHA regulations.
I'm not going to do it.




If there is issue on this site about performing live work, then like I said before, maybe the threads should be deleted.
Is there much difference between a homeowner asking how to hook-up a 3-way switch and an apprentice asking how to make a live connection?

 

[ty]

If there is issue on this site about performing live work, then like I said before, maybe the threads should be deleted.

or move it to the SAFETY forum, put a comment such as 'we don't recommend Live work because OSHA rules...and lock the thread.
.

 

[iwire]

What makes you think that I am not?

You stated so very directly.

Bob, I've known you here for many years. Over 10.
You are beating a dead horse with me on this subject.
It is going to turn into 82 pages of debate over OSHA regulations.
I'm not going to do it.

Then don't do it. Continue with business as usual and hope nothing happens.

If there is issue on this site about performing live work, then like I said before, maybe the threads should be deleted.

You seem to be the only one with an issue about it.

Is there much difference between a homeowner asking how to hook-up a 3-way switch and an apprentice asking how to make a live connection?

Yes there is a great deal of difference, the issue of hot work is only going to come up more and more as 70E becomes more well known.

I have known you for a while and have never seen you display such a poor attitude about a serious issue.

Again, don't click the mouse if you feel the subject is just a waste of bandwidth.

Myself, I think it is becoming one of the most important changes to our trade.

Where I work I could be fired if I hooked up a service hot.

 

[hillbilly1]

Where I work I could be fired if I hooked up a service hot.

Ditto here, in fact I'm responsible for issuing live work permits, in which I'm instructed to say No! No! No!

 

[mxslick]

I'm gonna fan the flames here but:

In our area, it is common practice for the EC to hook up residential service drops while live. In fact the POCO will not pull fuses on transformers for such actions. (In a way makes sense since most residential areas here have secondary laterals fed by multiple transformers and to kill one drop would require an outage for several other properties.)

In the past when I did the service change on my own families homes the POCO guys were amazed that I had called them to disconnect/reconnect the drop. Unless the drop needs to be replaced they don't want to waste the time.

Do I consider myself qualified to hook up a resi service hot? Yes. Am I aware of the risks? Absolutely. Would I do such a hookup tomorrow? Yes. And being a one-man shop, OSHA doesn't restrict me from doing so. Would I let my app (if I had one) do it? No way. It is simply too risky. One simple slip and bad things can happen. I see nothing wrong with SHOWING an app how to do it properly.

EDIT : And for training purposes, why not set up a non-powered mock up to allow the app to get practice handling the conductors and splices safely? Or maybe use low voltage and indicator lights to simulate live conditions? Safe and effective.

As for other services served by padmounts, I have personally seen both the POCO and EC's doing live connects/disconnects in those padmounts. Now that scares me, no way I would ever do that..way too much short circuit current available (literally in your face), cramped working space requiring wrenches/ratchets on closely spaced lugs...yikes.

As utilities upgrade and make more and more short-circuit current available at any given service point, I think EC's would be wise to carefully consider the possible consequences of connecting ANY service live..resi or commercial.

I am also of the school of connect grounded first, hots last. Opposite on disconnect. I do see the logic of doing it the other way around for service drops, but when dealing with temp power using camlocks or tails I feel it is safer to go ground-grounded-hot-hot-hot for connection.

 

[iwire]

In our area, it is common practice for the EC to hook up residential service drops while live.

So the point is what?

'We have always done it so lets not try to change things?'



My prediction is that over the next few years power companies will be required to either kill the power or do the connection.

Remember power companies do not have the power they used.

EDIT : And for training purposes, why not set up a non-powered mock up to allow the app to get practice handling the conductors and splices safely? Or maybe use low voltage and indicator lights to simulate live conditions? Safe and effective.

So you are suggesting intentionally training people to break the law.

That would be a 'willful violation' which is much more costly than a simple violation.

I suggest we train people not to do hot work and force the power companies hand.

 

[dwellselectric]

I suggest we train people not to do hot work and force the power companies hand.

Agreed

 

[mxslick]

So the point is what?

'We have always done it so lets not try to change things?'



My prediction is that over the next few years power companies will be required to either kill the power or do the connection.

Remember power companies do not have the power they used.

No Bob, but you yourself know that several years (at least 20 that I know of) of one practice takes a lot of inertia to change.

I do agree it's time to change things and make it safer, but consider this: most POCO's are severely undermanned as it is, now if it was a mandate that ONLY the POCO can do service connects (I'm referring mainly to resi in this case) what do you think is gonna happen when someone is left without power for days because the POCO can't get to them to do the reconnect? If the EC doesn't do it (who would be more likely qualified to do so safely) can you imagine the carnage when either the homeowner or "Joe Handyman" decided to try it? It has already happened here in a few cases where drops where cut for non-payment and the HO or handyman did their own reconnects with some sad results.

Like many things in life, this kind of thing falls into the lesser of the evils IMHO. If the EC is comfortable and qualified to do the connect, let them do it.

Either that, or how about this: the POCO's should train and certify EC's on the proper way to do it safely. It would solve the problem quite nicely I think.

But it would need complete support of the AHJ's to ensure that ONLY EC's who have been certified can pull permits for service changes...but now we have another layer of enforcement that many will try to cheat...

See where I am coming from? Lots of things are gonna have to change to effectively solve this dilemma.

My edit: As for the training simulator, you are correct in that training an app on that procedure is against OSHA ...I brain-faded on that. but it would still be a good way to train the master EC..

Remember power companies do not have the power they used.

Now that's a great quote!!:grin:

 

[zappy]

Preforming my first live service changeout in massachusetts. Normally do work in NH where the utility takes care of the hook-up. Any recommendations or specific procedures you would recommend?
Thanks:grin:

No aluminum ladders.

 

[zappy]

1/2" romex connectors:roll:

Blue wirenuts and cutting some strains off.

 

[zappy]

First thinks first- pull the main breaker or fuses and then pull the meter. Cut each wire carefully at the weatherhead so that you have a little extra from the utility.

I then hook my ungrounded conductors saving my grounded one for last. Install meter and turn it on.

Does the utility not come back and make a compression connection on the joints you make? They do here after it has been inspected.

I've always thought connect the NEU. first, Disconnect the NEU. last?

 

[ty]

You stated so very directly.

WHERE!!!!????!!!!!
Show me one post in this thread.

Yes there is a great deal of difference, the issue of hot work is only going to come up more and more as 70E becomes more well known.

I, at least, am not talking about there being a difference in performing the work, I am talking about discussing it.

I have known you for a while and have never seen you display such a poor attitude about a serious issue.

Actually it's been more like 12-13 years at least, now that I look back on it.
I don't have a poor attitude about safety.
look at all of my history.
And, what is the issue at hand??????
Discussing HOW to perform a task, or an endless number of pages on Why NOT to perform the task??

I've already staed 2 times the app. shouldn't be doing this task.
But any discussion on live work turns into a bigger discussion, and then argument on why NOT to do it.

Again, don't click the mouse if you feel the subject is just a waste of bandwidth.

Maybe I should not even sign in at all.

 

[hardworkingstiff]

Maybe I should not even sign in at all.

Take a deep breath. I for one, would miss you.

 

[PetrosA]

The reason it will be so difficult to force the POCOs to change back to doing hot work themselves is the very fact that OSHA only applies to employed people. What argument can anyone come up with to force them to protect us business owners since we are not employed by the POCO?

Since OSHA rules allows the contractor to do the hook-up regardless of his training, PPE or tools/equipment, someone from the POCOs has obviously gotten some lobbying done. OSHA is clearly not about the safety of doing electrical work per se, but about organizing an hierarchy of liability in case of an accident involving employed people. And it's thanks to that lobbying that such absurdities can become law when adopted by local or national authorities (the absurdity being that POCOs can put the responsibility on us as owners that we can't put on our employees, regardless of the level of training and equipment we provide).

I think ultimately since someone has to do it, the solution lies in training and creating the safest possible working conditions for the electrician even if it involves creating a special license for energized work. As someone mentioned, shutting off multiple residences/businesses to work on de-energized lines isn't always practicable and either an electrician or a lineman will have to do the work hot. At least the lineman has training, PPE and the right tools to maximize job safety. We should have access to the same thing since I really don't see grounds for forcing the POCOs to change.

 

[realolman]

IMO those are the most sensible thoughts on the subject I have heard yet.

Being a former lineman , I see no reason this stuff cannot be done safely.

I think the main effect of it is to de - skill the electrician, eventually lowering his pay rate.

 

[iwire]

WHERE!!!!????!!!!!
Show me one post in this thread.

Post number 62.

Actually it's been more like 12-13 years at least, now that I look back on it.
I don't have a poor attitude about safety.
look at all of my history.

I agree, in all the years I have been reading your posts you seemd to have a good attitude about safety. It is my personal opinion in this thread that has not been the case.

I've already staed 2 times the app. shouldn't be doing this task.
But any discussion on live work turns into a bigger discussion, and then argument on why NOT to do it.

And that seems to bother you, that is to bad. IMO we should be discussion why not to do it.

At the same time no one has stopped anyone from saying they can do it. No one has been deleted or edited, we all get to say our opinions on the matter.

Maybe I should not even sign in at all.

:roll:

Yeah, that is how you should handle it for sure. One thread you do not like so stop coming, that makes a lot of sense.

 

[iwire]

No Bob, but you yourself know that several years (at least 20 that I know of) of one practice takes a lot of inertia to change.p

So lets try to change things and not just say the momentum is to strong.

but consider this: most POCO's are severely undermanned as it is, now if it was a mandate that ONLY the POCO can do service connects (I'm referring mainly to resi in this case) what do you think is gonna happen when someone is left without power for days because the POCO can't get to them to do the reconnect?

It happens all the time when there are storms, we just had folks without power for many days in NH they all survived,

If the EC doesn't do it (who would be more likely qualified to do so safely) can you imagine the carnage when either the homeowner or "Joe Handyman" decided to try it? It has already happened here in a few cases where drops where cut for non-payment and the HO or handyman did their own reconnects with some sad results.

I think it is ridiculous to say electricians should risk themselves to keep the unqualified from doing stupid things. We are not firefighters or solders, we should not be expected to risk ourselves so a family can watch America Idol on time.

Like many things in life, this kind of thing falls into the lesser of the evils IMHO. If the EC is comfortable and qualified to do the connect, let them do it.

It is against federal law, or do laws that are inconvenient not apply?
These are they same federal laws that force large GCs to protect us from falls, they same laws the require certain safety standards in the work place.

I am sure if someone was saying Ford was forcing it's employees to work unsafely people would be up in arms but when it is a small shop they think the laws are just in the way.

Either that, or how about this: the POCO's should train and certify EC's on the proper way to do it safely. It would solve the problem quite nicely I think.

No amount of training allows an EC to make that connection hot.

But it would need complete support of the AHJ's to ensure that ONLY EC's who have been certified can pull permits for service changes...but now we have another layer of enforcement that many will try to cheat...

It would also mean 70E and OSHA rules would have to be removed.

See where I am coming from? Lots of things are gonna have to change to effectively solve this dilemma.

All I see is that you want to make excuses to do the work hot because the power company has cut staff.

My edit: As for the training simulator, you are correct in that training an app on that procedure is against OSHA ...I brain-faded on that. but it would still be a good way to train the master EC..

It is still a violation for a 'trained master EC' to make the connection hot.



Guys, I not half the PITA I come across as here, I do know there is a real world out there, I work in it. But once you really start getting used to the rules, work for a company that supports the rules and customers that understand the rules once we explain them it actually is pretty easy.


Nothing will change until we let it change.

 

[mivey]

Post number 13.

:-? Post #13:

That makes sense.

 

[iwire]

IMO those are the most sensible thoughts on the subject I have heard yet.

Being a former lineman , I see no reason this stuff cannot be done safely.

Your right it often can be done safely, there is just no reason to do it, there are other options,

If I could save a life by working a job hot I would do it in a heartbeat, but working hot and risking myself just so someone can keep more money in their own pocket seems stupid to me.

I think the main effect of it is to de - skill the electrician, eventually lowering his pay rate.

In my 25 years in the trade we have only been expected to learn more, have more certifications etc. that increases our wages.