Preforming my first live service changeout

[iwire]

:-? Post #13:

62, have no idea why I typed 13.

 

[mivey]

Guys, I'm not half the PITA I come across as here.

Have you got some poll numbers to back that up? :grin:

I understand where you are coming from. Almost everything we do has risk. Safety practices might be seen as weighing money against risk. If we remove all the risk, we would be doing nothing.

As for me, I am not ready to tell someone else how much their life is worth. If they don't feel safe then they should not do it. I am perfectly comfortable judging the risks to myself.

 

[mivey]

62, have no idea why I typed 13.

Where in that post does he say he is not concerned about his employees?

 

[iwire]

Where in that post does he say he is not concerned about his employees?

You are embellishing,:roll: I did not say he was not 'concerned about his employees'

I simply asked him why he was not concerned

Perhaps you could start sending the safety person at the local power company the OSHA sections?

That's not my concern.

How is it 'not your concern?

It's not my concern to supply the Power Companies with OSHA regulations that they are aware of.
Do you think they are concerned to get them?

At that point I replied I thought he should be concerned.

Meaning he should be concerned if the POCO is putting him in a position that could cost him a lot.

So simple even an EE can get it. :grin:

 

[iwire]

I understand where you are coming from. Almost everything we do has risk. Safety practices might be seen as weighing money against risk. If we remove all the risk, we would be doing nothing.

But this is not a case of 'we have to do it hot or not at all'

This is a case of we do it hot because we take the path of least resistance

 

[mivey]

You are embellishing,:roll: I did not say he was not 'concerned about his employees'...So simple even an EE can get it. :grin:

No embellishing,:roll: even an EE can read :grin::

Just remember, what you think you type is not always how it reads:

If you have employees you should be pretty damn concerned if not for their safety at least for he money it will cost you if you are fined.

What makes you think that I am not?
Have I stated that I require any of my employees to perform this task?

You stated so very directly.

WHERE!!!!????!!!!!
Show me one post in this thread.

 

[busman]

Without getting too far into the hot/not work debate. The actual act of connecting an overhead drop is a fairly safe one (if done correctly and with the right PPE). Objectively, the hazards are falling, shock and arc. Each can be mitigated using the following:

Fall protection
Cover-up for grounded items (line hose and blankets)
PPE (Gloves and Sleeves + Arc Flash clothing)

Using all of these things, the order of making up connections becomes moot. The proper procedure is to wear the PPE and work only one potential at a time. You can hook up the neutral first and cover it with a blanket or leave the neutral covered and make up one hot at a time. Either way, only one voltage should be exposed at a time and your PPE protects you from that (with the ladder as the last line of defense).

Just my opinion, but lineman work voltages up to 34.5 kV with these procedures. They should be good enough for 120/240.

Mark

 

[mivey]

But this is not a case of 'we have to do it hot or not at all'

This is a case of we do it hot because we take the path of least resistance

We do it or not do it because of the financial pressure. It is a weight of money vs risk., as it usually is.

If there were no penalty to work it cold, anyone with sense would cut it off because the risk would clearly out-weigh the no-penalty scenario. Someone somewhere made the decision to work it hot because of money (excluding the cases where someone was lazy, was late for donuts, etc).

In business, money is the driving force for what we do.

 

[iwire]

Fall protection
Cover-up for grounded items (line hose and blankets)
PPE (Gloves and Sleeves + Arc Flash clothing)

Using all of these things, the order of making up connections becomes moot.

Using all those things it is still an OSHA violation for ECs to make that connection.

No embellishing,:roll: even an EE can read :grin::

Just remember, what you think you type is not always how it reads:

Whatever you want to think.

I never stated Tod was not concerned about his employees safety, those where your words.

We do it or not do it because of the financial pressure. It is a weight of money vs risk., as it usually is.

Yes money to the boss usually laziness on the employees part.

If there were no penalty to work it cold, anyone with sense would cut it off because the risk would clearly out-weigh the no-penalty scenario. Someone somewhere made the decision to work it hot because of money (excluding the cases where someone was lazy, was late for donuts, etc).

In business, money is the driving force for what we do.

Thanks for stating the obvious but I still do not see the point.

 

[busman]

Using all those things it is still an OSHA violation for ECs to make that connection.

Not for me. I'm a one-man show. Can do whatever I want. I see a niche market in the future for this type of shop.

Mark

 

[iwire]

Not for me. I'm a one-man show. Can do whatever I want.

Sure can.

I see a niche market in the future for this type of shop.

Maybe for a while.

 

[AV ELECTRIC]

Here in California Edison will not hook you up until the inspector faxes them over a pass for final inspection . then Edison wrights up a work order to make the connection and may give you a time frame on when it can be done . the problem with this is the customer can be without power for an extended period of time. Your limited in what you can do either hook it up hot or leave it up to the inspector and Edison on when the power will be re energized . Better hope you don't fail inspection or you will extent that time. I believe this is a liability issue . Edison wont touch it till its approved but will turn there head and let you do it for the convenience of the customer . I believe the inspector does the same thing by letting this service be energized before it is inspected . My choice is clear hook them up in the best and safest way I can. You should have classroom training on this but in the field is where the real training occurs this type of work is not for everybody. I will let someone else get involved in some aspects of the hookup but I do the final connection every time.

 

[mxslick]

So lets try to change things and not just say the momentum is to strong.

C'mon now. you should know me better than that by now. :grin: I do agree that changes are needed, but one has to be realistic and see the whole forest, not just the tree that needs trimming.

It happens all the time when there are storms, we just had folks without power for many days in NH they all survived,

Not a valid comparison IMHO. It is understood that during storm conditions that hundreds, if not thousands, of people and businesses will not have power after a storm (or like in California, after an earthquake). When you have a single home sitting without power on a nice calm day while everyone else in the area has power is the scenario we're talking about here. :roll:

I think it is ridiculous to say electricians should risk themselves to keep the unqualified from doing stupid things. We are not firefighters or solders, we should not be expected to risk ourselves so a family can watch America Idol on time.

I'm sorry Bob, I think it is even more ridiculous for you to state the apparent position that electricians are evidently incapable of being trained to work hot in a safe and proper manner. How do you explain how the POCO guys are imbued with some sort of gene or gift that makes them suddenly better than an electrician and thus capable of working hot? It's all about TRAINING!!

And is it not the job of an electrician to do the job right precisely so the unqualified WON'T be doing stupid things?

I agree with you that American Idol is NOT worth any kind of risk. :grin:

It is against federal law, or do laws that are inconvenient not apply?
These are they same federal laws that force large GCs to protect us from falls, they same laws the require certain safety standards in the work place.

I am sure if someone was saying Ford was forcing it's employees to work unsafely people would be up in arms but when it is a small shop they think the laws are just in the way.

Laws can and have been changed. And perhaps this is one situation that need to be reviewed. Again, like I had suggested, a proper training and certification program would end this dilemma nicely.

I do agree that FORCING someone who is unqualified to do a dangerous task is not right and should be against the law.

No amount of training allows an EC to make that connection hot.

I go back to a statement I made above. Let's turn that to the POCO..how does that argument apply then?

If you had said "No amount of training under the current OSHA regs and laws allows an EC to make that connection hot." then I am in total agreement with you.

It would also mean 70E and OSHA rules would have to be removed.

Not removed, just amended to reflect that one must be certified to perform the task at hand. Again, laws can and have been changed.

All I see is that you want to make excuses to do the work hot because the power company has cut staff.

And all I see is you want to make excuses against setting up a qualification program which would expand the EC's scope of work, provide enhanced safety for a task we all know we shouldn't be doing but have done (and may continue to do.) It's all about making people safer, and training, despite your apparent bias against it, can do that in a manner which will save lives/injuries, save property, and enhance the value of services provided by your business.

It is still a violation for a 'trained master EC' to make the connection hot.

Under current rules and laws, absolutely. But I feel it is time for a long-overdue change in how things are done. Let's train people properly and amend the laws accordingly.

Guys, I not half the PITA I come across as here, I do know there is a real world out there, I work in it. But once you really start getting used to the rules, work for a company that supports the rules and customers that understand the rules once we explain them it actually is pretty easy.


Nothing will change until we let it change.

Bob, I don't ever think you are a PITA. You are a consummate professional who is very passionate about your work and very strong in your convictions, a very rare quality in this day and age. I respect you highly for that, and it is one if the reasons I enjoy engaging you in these discussions.

You are very fortunate to be in the position you are in, with a company that does indeed support the rules and is willing to take the time to explain the rules to your customers. Even more so that your customers are understanding of your position.

But we don't all have that same good fortune. That is why things do need to change.

Your closing line said it best.

So let it change, try out the idea of training EC's to work hot in the same safe manner that POCO's evidently do.

And for the record, yes even POCO's have accidents and fatalities despite training and experience. But that is life, folks. There is risk in everything. Any one of us can pass on for any reason, electrical accident or getting hit by a car.

 

[wawireguy]

I haven't met a electrician yet who has the proper understanding or training to work hot. NFPA 70E? Hmm, what's that? PPE? Got gloves? I agree if you have the proper training or have trained yourself and have the proper PPE then you should be able to work live. OSHA doesn't support that view though.

 

[jxofaltrds]

Are there times to work it hot? YES.

But I bet that it would hard to prove that you 'HAD' to work it hot.

 

[realolman]

There isn't really much in this world that you HAVE to do.

IMO this can be done safely,

 

[mivey]

Whatever you want to think.

I never stated Tod was not concerned about his employees safety, those where your words.

What I think is that you did not mean Tod was not concerned about his employees safety. I believe that because you are the best judge of what you mean.

No, you did not say that directly. What I meant was the flow of posts and replies made it read like that. Obviously, that is not what you intended.

Thanks for stating the obvious but I still do not see the point.

Then maybe it wasn't so obvious.

Bring enough financial pressure to bear and things that are deemed unsafe to do today could suddenly become safe tomorrow. If "55 saves lives" why aren't we still driving 55 mph?

We are categorizing things by them being "safe" and "unsafe". Today we say it is "safe" to use a knife to strip insulation. Tomorrow we may be required by OSHA to use the ACME insulation stripper. The day after tomorrow we would be up-braiding people for being unsafe for using a knife to strip insulation even if they have done it most of their careers. I'm just saying the line that separates "safe" and "unsafe" is often green.

 

[realolman]

....Bring enough financial pressure to bear and things that are deemed unsafe to do today could suddenly become safe tomorrow. If "55 saves lives" why aren't we still driving 55 mph?

We are categorizing things by them being "safe" and "unsafe". Today we say it is "safe" to use a knife to strip insulation. Tomorrow we may be required by OSHA to use the ACME insulation stripper. The day after tomorrow we would be up-braiding people for being unsafe for using a knife to strip insulation even if they have done it most of their careers. I'm just saying the line that separates "safe" and "unsafe" is often green.

Exactly. I wish I'd written that.

 

[iwire]

Man I wish I saw this thread before, I would have posted to it. :grin:

 

[mxslick]

Man I wish I saw this thread before, I would have posted to it. :grin:

Well dive right in sir!!:grin:

We're all on the edge of our chairs waiting to hear your opinion on this topic. :grin: