Wall Mount/ baseboard heater Code question

[raider1]

Yes but if you have 2 then same rules apply to the second

No they don't, there is nothing that requires all circuits in a laundry area to comply with 210.11(C)(2).

Chris

 

[iwire]

FWIW George Stolz tired to get them to add the word 'equipment' to the laundry receptacle requirements and they said no.

2-98 Log #1408 NEC-P02 Final Action: Reject
(210.11(C)(2) and Exception (New))
____________________________________________________________
Submitter: George Stolz, II, Pierce, CO
Recommendation: Change the term and add an Exception to read:
(2) Laundry Equipment Branch Circuits. In addition to the number of branch
circuits required by other parts of this section, at least one additional 20-ampere
branch circuit shall be provided to supply the laundry equipment receptacle(s)
required by 210.52(F). This circuit shall have no other outlets.
Exception: General purpose receptacles within the same laundry area shall be
permitted on the laundry equipment circuit.
Substantiation: As it is currently written in the 2005 NEC, laundry areas are
to be treated in the same method as the areas defined in (C)(1) and (C)(3). It
seems to unintentionally elevate the status of an entire laundry room as a
special location. This presents conflicts, in that if a washing machine is to be
located in a basement, the entire basement could be regarded as a laundry area,
requiring all receptacles to be supplied by that circuit.
It is generally assumed that the laundry receptacle is to be used for the
washing machine and gas-dryer ignitor receptacles. Changing the terminology
to address the equipment to be served will clarify the purpose of the
requirements of this section, and allow installers to install general-purpose
receptacles from a general purpose branch circuit to serve wall spaces in
laundry rooms.
Pertaining to the exception: Given that other cord-and-plug-connected
laundry-related appliances such as irons have a high probability to be used in
the laundry room, it is reasonable to allow this 20-ampere circuit to supply
other receptacles in the same space for such potential uses. It is more desirable
to extend the 20-ampere circuit required to encounter this potential load, than
to require it to be supplied by a 15-ampere circuit for general lighting and
receptacles.
Please note this is submitted with a coordinating proposal to similarly modify
210.52(F) accordingly:
(Change 210.52(F) to read: 210.52(F) Laundry Areas. In dwelling units, at
least one receptacle outlet shall be installed for the laundry equipment .)
Panel Meeting Action: Reject
Panel Statement: The addition of term ?equipment? as proposed by the
submitter adds no further clarity to the present text. The proposed new
exception is not necessary. The rule as written does not limit the number of
receptacle outlets supplied by the laundry branch circuit. However, that circuit
shall not supply outlets that are not covered in 210.52(F).
Number Eligible to Vote: 12
Ballot Results: Affirmative: 12

2-235 Log #1407 NEC-P02 Final Action: Reject
(210.52(F))
____________________________________________________________
Submitter: George Stolz, II, Pierce, CO
Recommendation: Change 210.52(F) to read:
210.52(F) Laundry Areas. In dwelling units, at least one receptacle outlet
shall be installed for the laundry equipment .
Substantiation: This will clarify that the receptacle is required to supply the
laundry equipment, not the entire room as a whole.
Please note: This proposal is submitted in coordination with a similar
proposal to revise 210.11(C)(2).
Panel Meeting Action: Reject
Panel Statement: The panel rejected the companion proposal to this proposal.
See the panel statement on Proposal 2-98.
Number Eligible to Vote: 12
Ballot Results: Affirmative: 12
____________________________

But truthfully the panel statements do not really make things that much clearer. :grin:

 

[Jim W in Tampa]

No they don't, there is nothing that requires all circuits in a laundry area to comply with 210.11(C)(2).

Chris

210.11(C)(2)

(2) Laundry Branch Circuits. In addition to the number
of branch circuits required by other parts of this section, at
least one additional 20-ampere branch circuit shall be provided
to supply the laundry receptacle outlet(s) required by
210.52(F). THIS circuit shall have no other outlets.

Perhaps the word this is confushion

Had it said the FIRST
or
ONLY ONE then I could agree

How is it with so many articles that the wording is poor and often would require no extra words just a better choice of words
__________________

 

[jxofaltrds]

I agree with most of that.
Now tell me how a receptacle that is in the laundry room is not a laundry receptacle ?

It is a receptacle 'in' the laundry room not a laundry room receptacle.

BTW it is a laundry "area". What is an area?

If I drop my underwear in the living room is that a laundry area?

 

[iwire]

210.11(C)(2)

(2) Laundry Branch Circuits. In addition to the number
of branch circuits required by other parts of this section, at
least one additional 20-ampere branch circuit shall be provided
to supply the laundry receptacle outlet(s) required by
210.52(F). THIS circuit shall have no other outlets.

Perhaps the word this is confushion

Had it said the FIRST
or
ONLY ONE then I could agree

How is it with so many articles that the wording is poor and often would require no extra words just a better choice of words
__________________

Jim, I still have no idea why you cannot understand his section.

If we read it the way you want us to the 240 volt 30 amp receptacle for an electric dryer is also a violation.

 

[Jim W in Tampa]

It is a receptacle 'in' the laundry room not a laundry room receptacle.

BTW it is a laundry "area". What is an area?

If I drop my underwear in the living room is that a laundry area?

So if you inspected this job how would you know if it is the MORE THAN 1 or just another circuit ?

Area would be dealing with a washer and or laundry equipment in a garage or basement or other area that is not an actual room

 

[jxofaltrds]

Jim, I still have no idea why you cannot understand his section.

If we read it the way you want us to the 240 volt 30 amp receptacle for an electric dryer is also a violation.

He has the 'jxofaltrds' syndrome.

 

[jumper]

If I drop my underwear in the living room is that a laundry area?

No, it is a Class 1, Div 1 at that point.:grin::grin::grin:

 

[Dennis Alwon]

The laundry area receptacle.

FWIW, It does not state laundry area. It states laundry receptacle.

 

[iwire]

So if you inspected this job how would you know if it is the MORE THAN 1 or just another circuit ?

When an inspector inspects a kitchen how do they know if those SABCs only supply the correct locations?

 

[iwire]

fwiw, it does not state laundry area. It states laundry receptacle.

fwiw ..........

210.11(c)(2) laundry branch circuits. In addition to the number
of branch circuits required by other parts of this section, at
least one additional 20-ampere branch circuit shall be provided
to supply the laundry receptacle outlet(s) required by
210.52(f). this circuit shall have no other outlets.

210.52(f) laundry areas. in dwelling units, at least one receptacle
outlet shall be installed for the laundry

 

[jxofaltrds]

FWIW, It does not state laundry area. It states laundry receptacle.

Dennis

What are the first two words of 210.52(F)?

EDIT I am too slow. Bob beat me.

 

[Jim W in Tampa]

Jim, I still have no idea why you cannot understand his section.

If we read it the way you want us to the 240 volt 30 amp receptacle for an electric dryer is also a violation.

Not a clue what your talking about now

 

[Dennis Alwon]

Yes I saw that and the title states laundry area but the sentence still says laundry receptacle. Of course the washer is in the laundry area that is where you launder your clothes.

 

[Jim W in Tampa]

When an inspector inspects a kitchen how do they know if those SABCs only supply the correct locations?

By seeing where they go if they can. If they see a living room coming off same circuit as kitchen receptacle I would hope he tags it on the rough. To some degree it just takes trust or 5 hours

 

[Jim W in Tampa]

Yes I saw that and the title states laundry area but the sentence still says laundry receptacle. Of course the washer is in the laundry area that is where you launder your clothes.

Who says we must have a washer ?

 

[iwire]

Yes I saw that and the title states laundry area but the sentence still says laundry receptacle. Of course the washer is in the laundry area that is where you launder your clothes.

So when you need a new clothes cleaning device you walk into Sears and ask to see the latest front loading laundry?

 

[iwire]

By seeing where they go if they can. If they see a living room coming off same circuit as kitchen receptacle I would hope he tags it on the rough. To some degree it just takes trust or 5 hours

And this would be different from a laundry how?????

In both cases either the inspector trusts it is done right or he has to trace the cables.

 

[iwire]

If we read it the way you want us to the 240 volt 30 amp receptacle for an electric dryer is also a violation.

Not a clue what your talking about now

Jim, you have been telling us all the receptacles in the laundry area must be supplied by the 'laundry area' circuit and that I can not add another one.

So in that case I cannot install an electric dryer receptacle.



Or lets say I had a gas dryer that draws 11 amps at 120 volts and I have a washer that draws 11 amps, you are saying I could not install a second circuit into that area even though the load might require it.

 

[jxofaltrds]

Who says we must have a washer ?

No one. Just like no range is required, beds are not require, carpet is not required. Many things are not required. We are discussing what the NEC requires.

It (the NEC) also does not require a furnace.