AFCI "Myth"

[al hildenbrand]

Well, doesn't the same current that the switch supplies also come through the breaker or fuse? Isn't that same current being 'taken' to supply utilization equipment traveling along the entire length of the branch circuit conductors? Does it not flow through the meter socket? The service conductors? Aren't they all 'a point in the wiring system'?

To me, the use of the word "taken" is the tricky point.

An outlet occurs in a switch that is used as a controller.

Take a look at the Article 100 definition of Premises Wiring (System) and you will see that wiring internal to a controller is not part of the Premises wiring system.

404.14(A) tells us that a common snap switch is used for "controlling" the loads specified is 404.14(A)(1) through (3).

For the current, being taken by the utilization equipment, to pass through the switch, used as the controller of that same utilization equipment, the current must "leave and re-enter" the Premises Wiring (System).

At least, that's the way I read the definitions of Outlet, Controller, Premises Wiring (System) and 404.14(A).

 

[electricmanscott]

I should have known what this would become.

 

[roger]

I should have known what this would become.

ROTFLMAO

Roger

 

[al hildenbrand]

ROTFLMAO

Roger

Or, more specifically, at post #780 of the amazing thread: click here.

 

[mikeames]

Yea and the OP never said he installed a floodlight with a switch in a bedroom. He just said he installed some circuits that did nto require AFCI or GFCI. Now we got a 3 page debate about the def of outlet. Sometimes this place is frustrating.

 

[cowboyjwc]

Then you would have to run seperate circuits to pick these up and it seems to bring up the controversy reguarding the definition of outlet it is at the least a very poorly thought out definition causing confusion among the ranks.
Why have a br high hat circuit afci through a sliding door switch location yet have a different circuit in the same wall in the same room under the same staple in the same box feeding the outside floods NOT on afci????? This makes absolutely zero sense. It makes them look like they are incompetent fools.
The point on a wiring system where current is taken to supply utilization equipment. To me the switchleg and the controling device the switch are most definitely a point on a wiring system where current is taken to supply utilization equipment from the feed.
OK I will duck now..................

I agree with you. If a light box is an outlet and the light is fed from a switch, then why wouldn't the switch be an outlet too? And since the light is an outlet and needs to be AFCI protected, then the switch is going to be protected also.

 

[jaylectricity]

I agree with you. If a light box is an outlet and the light is fed from a switch, then why wouldn't the switch be an outlet too? And since the light is an outlet and needs to be AFCI protected, then the switch is going to be protected also.

Electricity doesn't leave the permanently installed branch circuit from a junction box that houses a switch. A receptacle provides a place where electricity leaves the permanently installed branch circuit to power a lamp, tool, appliance, etc... A fixture outlet allows the electricity to leave the permanently installed part of the circuit to flow through a light fixture, again letting out the electricity from the main part of the circuit.

I don't know if that's right, but it sounds good.

 

[cowboyjwc]

Electricity doesn't leave the permanently installed branch circuit from a junction box that houses a switch. A receptacle provides a place where electricity leaves the permanently installed branch circuit to power a lamp, tool, appliance, etc... A fixture outlet allows the electricity to leave the permanently installed part of the circuit to flow through a light fixture, again letting out the electricity from the main part of the circuit.

I don't know if that's right, but it sounds good.

It does sound good and the electricity leaves a switch box to go to the light fixture.

 

[480sparky]

It does sound good and the electricity leaves a switch box to go to the light fixture.

Electricity 'leaves' every portion of a circuit. Therefore, every portion of a circuit is a point on the circuit where power is taken from to supply an outlet. Therefore, if a circuit is run through a room that requires AFCI protection, then that circuit requires AFCI protection.

I'll stick to calling receptacles and luminaires 'outlets', and calling switches 'switches'.

 

[Power Tech]

Or, more specifically, at post #780 of the amazing thread: click here.

Great thread!

I always run a AFCI to the bedroom and everything goes on it, even the smokes.

To the OP. Why tear up drywall to get to the panel. Can't you run exposed EMT into the attic to the new fan.

 

[roger]

Great thread!

You read all 78 pages?

Roger

 

[al hildenbrand]

Electricity doesn't leave the permanently installed branch circuit from a junction box that houses a switch. A receptacle provides a place where electricity leaves the permanently installed branch circuit to power a lamp, tool, appliance, etc... A fixture outlet allows the electricity to leave the permanently installed part of the circuit to flow through a light fixture, again letting out the electricity from the main part of the circuit.

I don't know if that's right, but it sounds good.

This is an interesting point to weigh against the last sentence of the Article 100 Definition of Premises Wiring (System).

Whether the parts are "permanently installed branch circuit" or not doesn't seem to enter into it.

In this thread, the switch is the controller of the lighting outlet. The Article 100 Definition of Premises Wiring (System) defines the "wiring" inside the switch as not part of the Premises Wiring.

The current flowing in the switch has to leave the Premises Wiring.

 

[Power Tech]

You read all 78 pages?

Roger

No, and I haven't read every page in the Bible either.

 

[K8MHZ]

No, and I haven't read every page in the Bible either.

At least they don't change it every three years...

 

[jaylectricity]

At least they don't change it every three years...

You'd be surprised.

 

[peter d]

Getting back on track here....

I do think Scott has rightly picked up on one of the newest myths in the trade since the advent of expanded AFCI protection. I have heard the same thing and of course it is hogwash. But, that won't stop it from being perpetrated from here to the ends of the earth. :roll:

 

[cowboyjwc]

Electricity 'leaves' every portion of a circuit. Therefore, every portion of a circuit is a point on the circuit where power is taken from to supply an outlet. Therefore, if a circuit is run through a room that requires AFCI protection, then that circuit requires AFCI protection.

I'll stick to calling receptacles and luminaires 'outlets', and calling switches 'switches'.

Oh, I don't care what you call them, as long as we agree on the intent.

 

[mivey]

Yea and the OP never said he installed a floodlight with a switch in a bedroom. He just said he installed some circuits that did nto require AFCI or GFCI. Now we got a 3 page debate about the def of outlet. Sometimes this place is frustrating.

Then exercise your rights.

I do think Scott has rightly picked up on one of the newest myths in the trade since the advent of expanded AFCI protection. I have heard the same thing and of course it is hogwash. But, that won't stop it from being perpetrated from here to the ends of the earth. :roll:

It probably started harmless enough, then someone took what they heard as fact instead of checking for themselves. For the conspiracy theorists: The manufacturers started the rumor.

 

[quogueelectric]

Then exercise your rights.It probably started harmless enough, then someone took what they heard as fact instead of checking for themselves. For the conspiracy theorists: The manufacturers started the rumor.

Should I continue ducking as it was an all out bovine attack. However the code says what it says and I didnt write it. Timing is everything in life.

 

[partimer31]

480sparky is 100% correct. On the switch issue.

A switch is a controller. It is not an outlet. The code did not require it
circuit to be AFCI protected. To me, personal it looks like some one drop
the ball. But I did not write the code.

The intent, was, that any loads, that received power while located inside
the bedroom, their power supply circuits would all need AFCI protection.
Here the use of a AFCI circuit breaker would meet this code requirement.
An example of loads inside a bedroom would be a smoke detector, wall or
ceiling mounted luminairs, and a ceiling fan. A device such a duplex
receptacle would also fall under the AFCI requirement. This device
would allow the use of such loads, as table lamps, a television set, and
alarm clock radio.

So are electrical inspector, noted that since a toggle switch in of itself does
not utilize power, and as long as the load under its control was located out-
side the bedroom, then no AFCI was require.

So this means, even though the wires to the toggle switch may be located
in a bedroom wall, it would be except from the AFCI requirement.

The code rules are but a minimum requirement, to be followed. No in-
spector would cite you for exceeding the rules and you could place the
switch in the bedroom on a AFCI breaker. But that same electrical in-
spector in my state would not fail your inspection, is you did not.

Often inspector when they see that you exceeded the code minimum
requirement, will say, you didn't have to do that, but it's okay to
exceed the code minimum requirement in your wiring.

Keep reading your code books, and you will find the answers you seek.