rough-in rejected

Status
Not open for further replies.

jaylectricity

Senior Member
Location
Massachusetts
Occupation
licensed journeyman electrician
Talked to inspector this morning. He said it didn't matter if I was going to use 15 amp breaker or not and that you can't mix #14 and #12 in a circuit......no code reference cited.

You were talking to him and he didn't give you a code reference? Did you ask him for a code reference or did you just say OK and hang up the phone?

Tell your customer that you'll have to charge them to follow a rule that doesn't exist. Give them the inspector's number and tell them if they can get a proper code reference from him you won't charge them for the additional work.

Just throwing ideas out, here.
 

mdh

Member
Good point. I did take this out as a homeowner and not on my contractor's license. I still plan on calling in the morning and plead my case. We'll see what happens.

what part of tn are you from?If it is from east tn I can give you the state inspectors boss's number if you need
 

cds9044

Member
Location
TN
Tell your customer that you'll have to charge them to follow a rule that doesn't exist. Give them the inspector's number and tell them if they can get a proper code reference from him you won't charge them for the additional work.

Just throwing ideas out, here.


No customer. It's my home addition.
 

augie47

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Tennessee
Occupation
State Electrical Inspector (Retired) DINOSAUR
That alone is a reason to talk with his supervisor.

As a TN inspector, I can't verify the validity of that supposition.
He is, of course welcome to do so (in this particular case I know who he would be talking to and all I could add would be "good luck"), but in a number of years inspecting in TN I have never been informed that a code reference was a requirement on a rejection slip. I do often provide them, but, as 75% of my rejections are to folks who don't own a Code, that reference means little.
In fact, I get complaints when I only give a Code reference.
 

Jim W in Tampa

Senior Member
Location
Tampa Florida
Your dealing with the type of inspector that we don't need. You can push this and even past his boss. You will win the battle but might take a court action and dollars. Why not print this post along with the answers and take it to him. Ask him how he handles voltage drops on large houses. His kind need to be educated or removed. Pushing this is the right thing to do but you will have problems in future not only with him. I would call him back and nicely ask his help in finding the code number. Give him a way to back down. Invite him to the forum, talk to his boss. Backing down will only makes this job go away, ones in future will still be a problem. He will think twice before writing up tags he can't back up if you push it.
 

rcarroll

Senior Member
Your dealing with the type of inspector that we don't need. You can push this and even past his boss. You will win the battle but might take a court action and dollars. Why not print this post along with the answers and take it to him. Ask him how he handles voltage drops on large houses. His kind need to be educated or removed. Pushing this is the right thing to do but you will have problems in future not only with him. I would call him back and nicely ask his help in finding the code number. Give him a way to back down. Invite him to the forum, talk to his boss. Backing down will only makes this job go away, ones in future will still be a problem. He will think twice before writing up tags he can't back up if you push it.
What a shame that some or most inspectors are so arrogant that we refuse to learn.:roll:
I am thrilled to be "corrected" on any code item I'm weak on.:)
Bring it on!
 

Jim W in Tampa

Senior Member
Location
Tampa Florida
What a shame that some or most inspectors are so arrogant that we refuse to learn.:roll:
I am thrilled to be "corrected" on any code item I'm weak on.:)
Bring it on!

The inspectors that are on this forum do want to learn and most of them are very helpfull in showing us where we need directed to. Always leave them a way to back down peacefully if possable. The ones like the OP has do not care and likely not qualified for the job. Fighting them can be hard and winning might not prove worth it if your going to work in there area.
 

mpd

Senior Member
The inspectors that are on this forum do want to learn and most of them are very helpfull in showing us where we need directed to. Always leave them a way to back down peacefully if possable. The ones like the OP has do not care and likely not qualified for the job. Fighting them can be hard and winning might not prove worth it if your going to work in there area.

jim i agree with what you say, but if an inspector cites a violation on a job and the contractor calls him or her on it, and it turns out the contractor is right (very rare in my case) just kidding, the inspector should be a professional, realize he made a mistake and change his ways, not hold grudges of make that contractors life hard, IMO there is no place for inspectors like that.
 

SAC

Senior Member
Location
Massachusetts
I tend to be a pain in the back-side, and this the type of thing that I'd likely not let go of. However, you might not need to be confrontational in doing so. Explain that you are an electrician that is wiring your own home, and that you are trained in and practice by the NEC. You would like to know the code reference so that you can be sure to perform the corrections adequately, and not make related mistakes on jobs in the future. You may also want to ask how you can compensate for voltage drop on long runs, while possibly dealing with devices that have connections that only support wire gauges smaller that that needed to compensate for the voltage drop on the long run.
 

cds9044

Member
Location
TN
"14 wire not to be used in a 20amp circuit."

This was his comment on rejection slip. When I told him it was going to be on a 15amp circuit, his comment was "doesn't matter you can't mix 14 and 12 on same circuit." So was I rejected for #14 on a 20amp circuit(which really will not be known until the breaker is actually installed) or mixing #14 with #12 in a circuit?
 

Jim W in Tampa

Senior Member
Location
Tampa Florida
This was his comment on rejection slip. When I told him it was going to be on a 15amp circuit, his comment was "doesn't matter you can't mix 14 and 12 on same circuit." So was I rejected for #14 on a 20amp circuit(which really will not be known until the breaker is actually installed) or mixing #14 with #12 in a circuit?
Let him pick either one he is still wrong. What upsets me is aftering being chalinged he did try to back it up with code. For what it is worth i would ask him to kindly tell you the number he thinks you violated. He will not be able to do this as we all know here. Notice we are devided on this as often happens. He is 100 % wrong now all we need is get him to understand why he is wrong.
 

volt101

Senior Member
Location
New Hampshire
The inspector should "Inspect not Expect."

When I leave a C of O behind on the job, all it is stating is that it was code compliant the day that I inspected it.

You can't protect the home owner from themselves. You can't regulate stupidity.
You can try to protect the idoits, however, they keep making better idiots.

You can't expect that someone will plug in to much stuff on the general receptacle circuits;
How about the fact that someone may actually run four or more appliances at once;
Banking on load diversity-how about the fact that my kids never shut off their lights;
A 20 circuit power panel with the six permitted service disconnects installed- yes someone could add an other breaker or two;
A loaded pipe run-someone could try to add another conductor in it;

A 36,000 sq ft single family home that I wired had 10 awg as "gunners." Would anyone expect that someone will try to put it on a 30 amp breaker when the directory states "Receptacles ?"

The inspector that is will to fight these kinds of battles must be truly bored out of their mind.

Again.....they are to Inspect not Expect...That is why we are not call "Wire Expectors"
 

cds9044

Member
Location
TN
250.122(B) Increased in Size.
Where ungrounded conductors are increased in size, equipment grounding conductors, where installed, shall be increased in size proportionally according to circular mil area of the ungrounded conductors


IMO it looks as if this could be interpreted more than one way.

1.) If the ungrounded conductor sz increase(#12 on 15 amp breaker) converts to #14 at some point within the same circuit(in my case on 3 ways and 1 fan/light combo), one could say that the EGC should continue to be sized with the #12.

2.) On the other hand, one could say that when the ungrounded conductors decreased(#12 to #14), the EGC should decrease also.

yeah....I'm confused..........Any thoughts?
 

dana1028

Senior Member
Really didn't think about leaving a note at the time. Didn't think I would get failed on the RI (maybe final inspection) and I really didn't think I put inspector in such a spot. Well, I guess that's what I get for thinking.

Here's the problem [you didn't think about] - as an inspector I don't know what your plans are;

in the many times I've seen 14 mixed with 12 for switch legs, the contractor had every intention of putting this on a 20A ckt;

If I did give this a 'pass' with no label in the panel, come final this work is closed up, I've been to 100's of other inspections since your rough, how am I supposed to remember that this one ckt needs special attention [15A breaker with 12 wire]... you would prob. forget as would I.

I know it is often impractical for you to sit around waiting for the inspector, but if you are going to do something a bit 'squirrelly', then you need to be on the job so we can agree on the work. In situations like this I just ask you to mark your NM [in the panel] "15A ckt only". But if you are not there to do this, we will prob. both forget about it come final.

Yes, mixing 14 with 12 with no tags = 'a bit squirrelly'.
 

Dave58er

Senior Member
Location
Dearborn, MI
250.122(B) Increased in Size.
Where ungrounded conductors are increased in size, equipment grounding conductors, where installed, shall be increased in size proportionally according to circular mil area of the ungrounded conductors


IMO it looks as if this could be interpreted more than one way.

1.) If the ungrounded conductor sz increase(#12 on 15 amp breaker) converts to #14 at some point within the same circuit(in my case on 3 ways and 1 fan/light combo), one could say that the EGC should continue to be sized with the #12.

2.) On the other hand, one could say that when the ungrounded conductors decreased(#12 to #14), the EGC should decrease also.

yeah....I'm confused..........Any thoughts?


see post #36
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top