rough-in rejected

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Jim W in Tampa

Jim W in Tampa

Senior Member
Location
Tampa Florida
dana1028 said:
Here's the problem [you didn't think about] - as an inspector I don't know what your plans are;

in the many times I've seen 14 mixed with 12 for switch legs, the contractor had every intention of putting this on a 20A ckt;

If I did give this a 'pass' with no label in the panel, come final this work is closed up, I've been to 100's of other inspections since your rough, how am I supposed to remember that this one ckt needs special attention [15A breaker with 12 wire]... you would prob. forget as would I.

I know it is often impractical for you to sit around waiting for the inspector, but if you are going to do something a bit 'squirrelly', then you need to be on the job so we can agree on the work. In situations like this I just ask you to mark your NM [in the panel] "15A ckt only". But if you are not there to do this, we will prob. both forget about it come final.

Yes, mixing 14 with 12 with no tags = 'a bit squirrelly'.
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First lets deal with squirrelly. It is not one bit wrong or unusual to mix wire sizes. For voltage drop problems it is the practical way to go. This might simply been a truck answer or chance to use up some wire he already owned.Now as you should know, there is no requirement in NEC to leave you a note. Yes it makes your job easier but your paid to do the job. Being on the job depends on many things. Do you setup appointments ? If not then the electrician needs to look at time spent waiting verses cost of reinspects. I have been told many times to just sit and wait for the inspector ,but that is because a days wages is worth it to not holdup a job over a failed inspection. If your reinspect is free then its easy to pick. Fact that you can not remember details days, weeks,months later is your problem alone. Make yourself notes and take pictures. Pictures are worth a thousand words. You have no right to tag a job because your not sure what the electrician intends to do. Fact remains that the OP had a NEC compliant job. Care to site a code number for the tag you would wrote ? Keep in mind that untill the breaker goes in you can not call this a 20 amp circuit. Now i do agree that he should have left you a note, phone number and being was pulled as a home owner you should inspect everything as few home owners know enough to wire a house. Having been out of residential wiring for almost 6 years i myself would find it a bit rough at first with all the code changes.

What an inspector should have done here is leave a note and cell number (yes it works both ways) and told him that your holding off on passing this job untill he calls you to exsplain what might become a violation.
 
rcarroll

rcarroll

Senior Member
Location
Fort Collins, Colorado
Jim W in Tampa said:
What an inspector should have done here is leave a note and cell number (yes it works both ways) and told him that your holding off on passing this job untill he calls you to exsplain what might become a violation.
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I don't give my cell phone number to a lot of people. I don't want everyone calling me & asking "if this is ok, what should I do, etc". Nuisance calls.
Instead, I'll write on the permit card & enter into the computer....Such & such circuit is required to have a 15 amp breaker due to #14 wire in circuit.
 
Jim W in Tampa

Jim W in Tampa

Senior Member
Location
Tampa Florida
rcarroll said:
I don't give my cell phone number to a lot of people. I don't want everyone calling me & asking "if this is ok, what should I do, etc". Nuisance calls.
Instead, I'll write on the permit card & enter into the computer....Such & such circuit is required to have a 15 amp breaker due to #14 wire in circuit.
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I would have no issue with an inspector doing this as he has done the correct thing. As the electrician if i didn't understand when you fail it on final if it has a 20 then thats my problem and an easy fix. I have noticed often while the inspector is visiting my job he gets calls. All part of wearing that hat.
 
rcarroll

rcarroll

Senior Member
Location
Fort Collins, Colorado
Jim W in Tampa said:
I have noticed often while the inspector is visiting my job he gets calls. All part of wearing that hat.
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While I agree, my phone has several ringtones. The most obnoxious one is for my boss:grin:. I HAVE to answer that one. That said, when I'm on a job, I do my very best to give the customer my undivided attention. The other calls go to voice mail & I retrieve them asap.
 
S

shortcircuit2

Senior Member
Location
South of Bawstin
This thread has ended up where charlieb went in post #35 now that the inspector has referenced 250.122(B)

Is this a gray area as worded in section 250.122(B) as written? I believe so. If it were written something like this...

Where ungrounded conductors are increased in size, equipment grounding conductors, where installed, shall be increased proportionately according to the circular mil area of the ungrounded conductors for that portion of the circuit where the increase is made.

shortcircuit2
 
augie47

augie47

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Tennessee
Occupation
State Electrical Inspector (Retired)
As mentioned in post #36, I'm of the opinion that 250.122(B) doesn't close the case due to this wording in 250.122(A) "but in no case shall they be required to be larger than the circuit conductors supplying the equipment."
If you increase the circuit conductors to compensate for voltage drop, and, at some point in the system you decrease the size to match the OCP, that wording makes me think you could then drop the grounding conductor also. If not how would we ever terminate on a wiring device where say we increased the conductor to a #6 for a long run.
 
cowboyjwc

cowboyjwc

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Simi Valley, CA
rcarroll said:
While I agree, my phone has several ringtones. The most obnoxious one is for my boss:grin:. I HAVE to answer that one. That said, when I'm on a job, I do my very best to give the customer my undivided attention. The other calls go to voice mail & I retrieve them asap.
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I think that's great and I used to do the same thing. The problem is they blocked our numbers, because they don't want the contractors to have them, but it blocks all the numbers so unless they leave a voice mail, I don't know who called me. And if I miss a call, you can bet that it was my boss.:)
 
C

cds9044

Member
Location
TN
For the project to move on, I changed out the #12 in the circuit to #14(so now entire ckt is #14)...Passed reinspection today.....Left note for inspector stating "For future reference, which NEC or local code was last week's rough-in failure in violation of?

He wrote on my note "Wire table 316 14 wire to be fused at 15amps."

WOW! So he told me something I was going to do all along and avoided telling me which code was violated by mixing #12 and #14 wire in a circuit. Also, is there even a table 316?
 
kbsparky

kbsparky

Senior Member
Location
Delmarva, USA
Jim W in Tampa said:
...What an inspector should have done here is leave a note and cell number (yes it works both ways) and told him that your holding off on passing this job untill he calls you to exsplain what might become a violation....
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I disagree here. A good inspector would not say a thing, but make a notation on his paperwork. Then, on the final all he would need to do is check that circuit to ensure it had proper (15 A) overcurrent protection. If that was the case, then the final would not be affected, either.

Only if he found the improper protection (20 A) when performing the final should the issue even be mentioned.
 
Jim W in Tampa

Jim W in Tampa

Senior Member
Location
Tampa Florida
kbsparky said:
I disagree here. A good inspector would not say a thing, but make a notation on his paperwork. Then, on the final all he would need to do is check that circuit to ensure it had proper (15 A) overcurrent protection. If that was the case, then the final would not be affected, either.

Only if he found the improper protection (20 A) when performing the final should the issue even be mentioned.
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I would like to think that if the inspector seen a potential problem that he would say something. Your way would work but there are better ways. Perhaps pass it and leave a note saying you will be checking on final for a 15 amp breaker on this mixed circuit. That way job is not held up. With some builders the loss of even 1 day puts them behind for far longer than you might think.
 
J

John Paul

Member
Location
Norfolk, VA
cds9044 said:
For the project to move on, I changed out the #12 in the circuit to #14(so now entire ckt is #14)...Passed reinspection today.....Left note for inspector stating "For future reference, which NEC or local code was last week's rough-in failure in violation of?

He wrote on my note "Wire table 316 14 wire to be fused at 15amps."

WOW! So he told me something I was going to do all along and avoided telling me which code was violated by mixing #12 and #14 wire in a circuit. Also, is there even a table 316?
Click to expand...

The inspector should have referenced 240.4 (D) Small conductors...
 
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